Relationships outside of marriage

[Isabelle90]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

Personally, I am a more "concrete" person. That is, grasping my mind around an online relationship is much like reading something by Stephen Hawking. It takes some time for it to sink in. I need to see, touch, taste, smell, and hear. I don't possess the sixth sense. "Abstract" does not really appeal to me as much. Ye of little faith and all that?

[Playfulsub]

I think you've asked a really good question, and a a pertinent one for many. I am in the situation you've described. I've been married for 13 years and we have two young kids. The marriage has been 'on the rocks' for over 5 years. It started having problems three years into it, and nothing was ever resolved.

A couple of years ago, I re-discovered my submissive leanings. I suspect they're a great deal stronger than I've allowed myself to believe, but I've been unable to really explore them safely. I convinced my husband to try some D/s play in the bedroom. It was fun, to a degree, while it lasted, but it left me feeling like there was so much more to it. Unfortunately, because of the nature of our marital problems, I could never submit to my husband emotionally. After 15 years together, he has really very little idea of 'the real me' which makes it impossible for me to trust him emotionally.

I realize this answer is becoming long-winded, but I really just wanted to speak to your 'Is it appropriate?' question. I don't know the answer. I wish I did. I do know that I am, for the most part, a happy and successful person. But then there's this strong need of mine to find someone I can respect and submit to.

[Ozme52]

I'm in such a relationship too, have noted that elsewhere, so it's not a revelation to anyone.

I guess, in one respect, I was very fortunate. When I first got married, we talked about a lot of subjects... and one of them was fidelity. We came to the conclusion we both have large (and *dominant) egos and didn't want to have an open-swinging marriage... but also agreed that the thing that wrecked many of our friends' marriages was "forbidden fruit." So we agreed that nothing was forbidden except parting because of an affair.

We have a "don't ask-don't tell" semi-open marriage. It's worked for 30+ years.

That means I personally, can have an online relationship and can be in-the-flesh (itf) without feeling guilty about it. The hard part is finding the right partner who is either in the same situation or can live within the boundaries of my situation, as I'm determined to maintain both lifestyles.

---------------------
* We're both dominant personalities but there's no "kink" in hers. Who knows how it might have been different if I'd recognized (or faced) my own needs when I was younger. Then again, I might have been a lonely old dom... so I'm not complaining.

[Playfulsub]

We have a "don't ask-don't tell" semi-open marriage. It's worked for 30+ years.

That means I personally, can have an online relationship and can be in-the-flesh (itf) without feeling guilty about it. The hard part is finding the right partner who is either in the same situation or can live within the boundaries of my situation, as I'm determined to maintain both lifestyles.

That's fantastic that you have come to that agreement with your wife. I have broached the subject with my husband, but he is absolutely not interested. Which is a shame, because now I'm doing it behind his back, which is not in my nature at all. The ideal situation for us would be a semi-open marriage where we are both free to explore other relationships but we stay together for the kids. We could probably end up being good friends if he was open minded enough to try it.

[Flaming_Redhead]

If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

There's a saying that goes "you can never really know someone." Even the best judges of character get duped from time to time. In my opinion, it's only okay to have a relationship outside of marriage if both parties are aware of and in agreement with the arrangement, whether it's online or real life. The realization that one is submissive or dominant while their partner is not doesn't make it okay to cheat in my book because any number of excuses are used all the time by cheaters, i.e. my wife got fat after she had kids or my husband has lost interest in me. I'll use myself as an example. My ex-husband and I had different needs. He didn't mind the online stuff because it got me hot. Any online persons I "played" with knew I was still married. However, it wasn't enough for me. I wanted the real deal. He refused to let me go outside of the marriage, even though I gave him permission to do likewise. In the end, we couldn't work out our differences, which included things outside of the bedroom, and I chose to leave rather than stay and do what I knew would happen eventually...which is that I would either cheat on him or be placed back on antidepressants or both....

So to answer your question, in my opinion, you either need the blessing of the person you made vows to or you need to move on when you realize that it will never work. A third option is to stay and be miserable together for the rest of your lives. I don't think it's fair to start a new relationship under false pretences. I would certainly be furious and hurt if I discovered that my dom was still married instead of divorced as I'm sure he would be if he discovered the same about me. On the flip side, if I were the spouse who discovered my partner having an affair for whatever reason, I would also be furious and hurt. I could never trust someone who lied about something like that, and I didn't want to be the person who couldn't be trusted...so...yeah...it's not okay. But that's just my opinion, and what other people do is really none of my business, unless they're doing it to me.

[Isabelle90]

I think you've asked a really good question, and a a pertinent one for many.

Playfulsub, I thought it was pertinent as well. However, I think it might be a rather taboo topic. Leave it to me to stick my foot in my mouth!!!

I realize this answer is becoming long-winded, but I really just wanted to speak to your 'Is it appropriate?' question. I don't know the answer.

I don't know the answer either. I'm not sure any of us do, but surely people have opinions that could help others in similar situations just as you did!

[Ozme52]

That's fantastic that you have come to that agreement with your wife. I have broached the subject with my husband, but he is absolutely not interested. Which is a shame, because now I'm doing it behind his back, which is not in my nature at all. The ideal situation for us would be a semi-open marriage where we are both free to explore other relationships but we stay together for the kids. We could probably end up being good friends if he was open minded enough to try it.

Don't misunderstand. This is a 30 year old agreement which we never discussed save for once or twice early on...and once when she was concerned about a particular lady who turned out to be, not a lady, but a girl. (But I mention the incident to allow people to understand, this agreement isn't a figment of my imagination. LOL)

Several of my acquaintances had apparently stepped over the line... but I had not because our agreement included... no mutual friends, no mutual acquaintances. I kept to the letter of the agreement... and probably sidestepped a nasty outcome.

I would be the first to admit that trying to negotiate that kind of agreement after a number of years of marriage would be difficult. We set the guidelines for our relationship early on... and yes, somethings change and mature over time. But I think this particular topic is a difficult one to "renegotiate" especially if you don't already have something in place other than your marriage vows.

Good luck.

[jeanne]

I would be the first to admit that trying to negotiate that kind of agreement after a number of years of marriage would be difficult. We set the guidelines for our relationship early on... and yes, somethings change and mature over time. But I think this particular topic is a difficult one to "renegotiate" especially if you don't already have something in place other than your marriage vows.

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

[caligirl{Rob}]

well i can only speak for myself, my situation and what "works" for me, yes i am married 14+ years, have 2 children and care for my 85 yr old mother, and yes i have a r/l relationship outside of marriage, divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker. my ideal would be to be with Him 24/7, and we are working towards that...but for now my children and my responsibilites here keep me here...i have been in therapy and have asked my husband to go also, he has refused, he refuses to discuss our marriage, has little interest in sex and his response to my bringing up the subject of divorce has been only that "if it is what i want".... i do not look or ask for "acceptance" of this from anyone, my children are my priority but i refused to continue to put my needs on hold or deny myself this part of my life, i do not need to prove my trustworthiness or honesty to anyone but MR, His actions have made His intentions clear, He has made it clear that my children come first, and that He is serious in His commitment to the collar He placed on me...

i will not call it okay, nor will i ask for anyone's "approval" of it, it is what it is, at 42 and living and losing what i have, i am living what i need, and should i be so lucky i will eventually not have the duality to maintain, but until then this is how my life is, how my heart continues to beat

cali

[Isabelle90]

I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

If your husband found out and ended your marriage (would he?), would you then be able to begin an open real-life, if it's not already, relationship with your dom?

How would you handle this with your children?

I'm trying to grasp what it would be like to be in this situation.

[caligirl{Rob}]

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

throws self in front of you...as you definitely do not deserve to have a tomato of any sort lobbed at you *hugs*

[jeanne]

If your husband found out and ended your marriage (would he?), would you then be able to begin an open real-life, if it's not already, relationship with your dom?

How would you handle this with your children?

I'm trying to grasp what it would be like to be in this situation.

Isabelle - I'm fortunate in some ways. I have a real-life relationship with him. Because of distance we are unable to see each other often, but when we do...yes, it's that good.

And my children are almost grown. They are beginning their own lives now and will only be at home another year or two. (Yep, I'm an old lady. )

If my husband found and then divorced me, would I have a more open relationship with Him? Well, yes and no. I'd see him more often, that's for sure, but he too is married and committed to that marriage so it isn't as if we'd be together always and live happily everafter. But, the time we spend together is so intense, so completely real and so bone-deep satisfying for me that I'm happy with what I get. Very happy with what I get.

[jeanne]

throws self in front of you...as you definitely do not deserve to have a tomato of any sort lobbed at you *hugs*

I'm a big girl, cali, I can deal. But thanks! (Remember me telling you in PM that we were in similar situations? This is what I meant.)

*hugs back*

[ThisYouWillDo]

OK - Vows, promises and agreements between life-partners (for want of a better neutral word) that are being adhered to must be binding, and deliberately stepping outside the limits breaks the commitiments given and received. That's cheating.

But eventually, sometimes, those undertakings lapse or are neglected, or just become irrelevant. Nevertheless, the relationship continues, either because it is comfortable, or because it remains a loving relationship notwithstanding its shortcomings. Life changes things over time and relationships alter in response. What was important once might not be now. If one then goes beyond the old agreed limits, is it still cheating? Or if so, does it matter?

You might say, it's only OK if the other partner consents. I say, if it is necessary to obtain permission then it is still important to the relationship (in which case the original undertakings apply). Just because something isn't quite working for one person in a relationship doesn't mean he/she has to highlight it to the other if it can be discretely dealt with separately. To my mind, that would elevate a minor problem to a major issue that could eventually ruin the partnership entirely.

(Sometimes a partnership is forced to continue for economic/family/other reasons or because one partner simply refuses to accept the reality that the relationship has broken down. That is a different situation from what I have described above. And to my mind, there can be no cheating because the undertakings evaporated when the partnership hit the rocks and the "wayward" partner has no duty of fidelity towards the other.)

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person. Assuming it is cheating, they can't. But I guess they take a calculated risk that it will work for them as far as they want it to. After all, apart from spotty, spunk-filled teenagers bent on destroying Casanova's claim to be the world's best lover, most people want to have an honest relationship with their lover. If there's no trust, then I do not see how the relationship can progress beyond crude sex.

TYWD

[annie]

I have no intention of renegotiating this topic with my husband - and yes, I have a D/s relationship outside my marriage. I didn't go looking for it, it just happened. And I wasn't willing or able to pass up the opportunity. Does that make me a bad person, a bad wife? By society's definition, yes. Am I ignoring my husband for this other person? No. Am I entirely happy about my decision? No. But I'm able to live with it. I love my husband and intend to spend the rest of my life with him and will do everything in my power to ensure he never knows. And I'll deal with the consequences if he ever finds out - good or bad. And yes, I know it would be bad.

But for now, I have my husband - the man I've been with for 22+ years, and I have Him - the Dom I hope to have for many years to come. And I am okay with the situation and rapidly finding the internal balance I need to make it work for me.

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

well i can only speak for myself, my situation and what "works" for me, yes i am married 14+ years, have 2 children and care for my 85 yr old mother, and yes i have a r/l relationship outside of marriage, divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker. my ideal would be to be with Him 24/7, and we are working towards that...but for now my children and my responsibilites here keep me here...i have been in therapy and have asked my husband to go also, he has refused, he refuses to discuss our marriage, has little interest in sex and his response to my bringing up the subject of divorce has been only that "if it is what i want".... i do not look or ask for "acceptance" of this from anyone, my children are my priority but i refused to continue to put my needs on hold or deny myself this part of my life, i do not need to prove my trustworthiness or honesty to anyone but MR, His actions have made His intentions clear, He has made it clear that my children come first, and that He is serious in His commitment to the collar He placed on me...

i will not call it okay, nor will i ask for anyone's "approval" of it, it is what it is, at 42 and living and losing what i have, i am living what i need, and should i be so lucky i will eventually not have the duality to maintain, but until then this is how my life is, how my heart continues to beat

cali

Joins Cali and Jeanne.... because I have been there done that, in the exact same fashion for a majority of the exact same reason.... and in retrospect, there is very little I would have changed about it. A relationship outside of my marriage was, at one point, the only thing that kept me safe and here for my kids. I can't regret or feel bad about that although I do feel bad about how/why it came about, but the how/why was not entirely my choice and I did try other options prior to making the choice I made.

[annie]

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person. Assuming it is cheating, they can't. But I guess they take a calculated risk that it will work for them as far as they want it to. After all, apart from spotty, spunk-filled teenagers bent on destroying Casanova's claim to be the world's best lover, most people want to have an honest relationship with their lover. If there's no trust, then I do not see how the relationship can progress beyond crude sex.

Think it is a matter of what "trust" is defined as for each person just as "playing away" is defined by each person. And honestly, I think in many ways it is easier to build trust in the second relationship, assuming of course that the relationship is a real founded caring relationship and not just a quick sex fest. (Hence where "true vs. play" Dominates come in to my way of thinking.) To me the second relationship was not a "play" relationship. It was true and real and more substantial on most levels then my marriage was. I could trust him to be more open and brutally honest when I needed it, etc. The second relationship isn't just about sex or playing... it is about so much more then that. I have ended relationship/friendship that were being created just on "sex" because that is not what I am seeking... "sex" to me is NOT the point or the reason. There is a different between cheating for sex and cheating due to happiness and fulfillment on other levels. Yes, I know splitting hairs in a way...

After all at that point what else is there to loose? You have learned from your previous mistakes (hopefully) and with the right "second" relationship you are forced, on many levels, to take a look at what you did/do wrong, evaluate it, change it, etc by the simple fact of sharing it with someone else on such an intimate level. Honestly, I knew with my first Dominate, who was also married, what his level of commitment could be, what limitations where on the relationship, etc. I had more trust in him (and still do) then I do in my husband daily... not sure I can explain it....

And just to confuse the topic more... there are times that I find that the second relationship actually enhances the first without the other partners knowledge. If I am being more fulfilled and being made happier due to whatever reason/source I am less likely to take the small annoying things and blow them out of portion. I am calmer, more able to focus, etc. All of which have positive impacts on the marriage....

[Playfulsub]

In the end, we couldn't work out our differences, which included things outside of the bedroom, and I chose to leave rather than stay and do what I knew would happen eventually...which is that I would either cheat on him or be placed back on antidepressants or both....

Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

[Playfulsub]

(Sometimes a partnership is forced to continue for economic/family/other reasons or because one partner simply refuses to accept the reality that the relationship has broken down. That is a different situation from what I have described above. And to my mind, there can be no cheating because the undertakings evaporated when the partnership hit the rocks and the "wayward" partner has no duty of fidelity towards the other.)

Bingo.

[annie]

Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

I am in that same spot.... but you know... something happened the other day that makes me reconsider if my staying for the sake of the kids is REALLY the best option...

We were arguing. Which actually doesn't happen often... once a quarter or less normally and in this argument I got fed up and left the room. Our youngest (5 years old) had gotten up and over heard a large portion of it. When I left the room she proceeded to go in and tell daddy that "you have the choice to leave instead." Her exact words. So... the question becomes... am I helping the kids or hurting them worse?

(Sorry... this is actually sidetracking this thread a bit, if it gets too bad I'll see about splitting the two!)

[Isabelle90]

*Commence throwing rotten tomatoes*

There will be no throwing of food, rotten or otherwise!!! Who are any of us to judge? I certainly am not!

divorce at this time would be financial ruin for the father of my children, my Dom has my complete trust and respect, knows all of my life, supports me emotionally, fulfills me and makes me so much more of a mother, woman, and caretaker.

Cali, you are extremely unselfish! I cannot imagine putting myself through the emotional rollercoaster you must be in. In my opinion, the openness is which you have with your dom is awesome! Hopefully it is helping to balance your life.

Life changes things over time and relationships alter in response. What was important once might not be now. If one then goes beyond the old agreed limits, is it still cheating? Or if so, does it matter?

Isabelle also asks how the couple who are "playing away" can possibly trust each other knowing that they are cheating on at least one other person.

TYWD

TYWD, I think that is what Flaming Red was kind of saying. People and relationships change over time. I guess it's just a matter how we choose to deal with those changes.

I didn't use the phrase "playing away" because I don't think that anyone that has a D/s relationship outside of their marriage would ever consider it that. If it were just "playing," most of us would probably agree that that would be selfish and considered cheating. (Really, though, I'm not judging!)


These are simply questions that float through my head. Anyone that knows me, even here, knows that I ask questions! Not out of judgement, but out of curiosity. I have a need to learn and understand.

Think of me as Oprah, only without the billion dollars!!!

Next up......polyamorous people. What say you?

[ThisYouWillDo]

A quick note of explanation. Over here, when a soccer team visits another town for a football match, they are "playing away." You might call them the "visiting team". The phrase has come to be used in the UK to refer to people who are having extra-marital relationships.

I was not referring only to people who were "playing" when I used the term, but also to people who were conducting serious relationships outside their marriage/partnership.

TYWD

[caligirl{Rob}]

(Hence where "true vs. play" Dominates come in to my way of thinking.)

And just to confuse the topic more... there are times that I find that the second relationship actually enhances the first without the other partners knowledge. If I am being more fulfilled and being made happier due to whatever reason/source I am less likely to take the small annoying things and blow them out of portion. I am calmer, more able to focus, etc. All of which have positive impacts on the marriage....

How very well stated annie! i have returned from visits with MR to hearing "You should go off more often as it seems to do you so well"

i can also relate to not always knowing when or if staying or going is the best for anyone...it is as i stated what it is...and whatever it is it is ALWAYS given thought...i have no delusions of "happily ever after" or life without conflict, it is not easy to stay and it will not be easy to leave...i am blessed to have in my life a strong, confident, caring Dom and partner who wants to take me on as a "whole package"

hugs!
cali

[Flaming_Redhead]

Do you have children, Flaming-Redhead? The ONLY reason I am still in my marriage is because I really don't want to pull the rug out from under my kids. My husband is not physically or verbally abusive, (although his constant negativity and criticism wears on my self esteem sometimes), he's not an alcoholic, he's not a 'bad' person. It's just that after 15 years, he has no idea who I am. Why? Because he never hears me. Ever. It's intensely frustrating to be disappointed time and time again. And I can relate the to 'being placed on anti-depressants' part. But, I feel for the sake of my kids, it's best to stay for now.

Yes, I have a 4-year-old son. The same can be said of my ex-husband. He didn't drink, do drugs, cuss, hit me, etc. I could've done a lot worse, I guess. Just because he wasn't a bad person didn't mean he wasn't a bad husband. In the end, he did became verbally abusive in an effort to keep me from leaving him...telling me no one would ever love me....I'm simply unlovable....is that a word? He told me I couldn't make it without him....I'd end up with someone who'd treat me like shit....that my son would be all messed up from the broken home.....etc. *sigh* I don't believe "staying for the kids" does any good for the people in the relationship or the kids. Your kids are learning how relationships work from YOU. If all they ever see is a total lack of respect for each other, cold silence, bickering, fighting, nagging, etc., what are you teaching them, really? It's okay to treat your spouse like crap? This is how normal married people live? My mom stayed married to an alcoholic "for the kids" and financial stability. Um...I didn't see it as any great favor to me! I could've done without all that, really. If you can put on a happy face until your kids are grown, how in the hell are you going to explain that their entire life has been a lie? Just something to think about....

[Ozme52]

I am in that same spot.... but you know... something happened the other day that makes me reconsider if my staying for the sake of the kids is REALLY the best option...

We were arguing. Which actually doesn't happen often... once a quarter or less normally and in this argument I got fed up and left the room. Our youngest (5 years old) had gotten up and over heard a large portion of it. When I left the room she proceeded to go in and tell daddy that "you have the choice to leave instead." Her exact words. So... the question becomes... am I helping the kids or hurting them worse?

(Sorry... this is actually sidetracking this thread a bit, if it gets too bad I'll see about splitting the two!)

It's an interesting conundrum. How much do the kids know, how much do they understand. We were older but my sister and I wished our parents had separated 10 years earlier than they did. I think all four of us (parents and kids) would have been happier. AND I think both my parents would have had a better chance at finding compatible 2nd partners.

[Ozme52]

Think of me as Oprah, only without the billion dollars!!!

I need a new car!!

[Ozme52]

A quick note of explanation. Over here, when a soccer team visits another town for a football match, they are "playing away." You might call them the "visiting team". The phrase has come to be used in the UK to refer to people who are having extra-marital relationships.

I was not referring only to people who were "playing" when I used the term, but also to people who were conducting serious relationships outside their marriage/partnership.

TYWD

Thanx!! I love learning new idioms.

[Ozme52]

Next up......polyamorous people. What say you?

I suggest you start another thread.
This one probably hasn't run its course yet.

[caligirl{Rob}]

Yes, I have a 4-year-old son. The same can be said of my ex-husband. He didn't drink, do drugs, cuss, hit me, etc. I could've done a lot worse, I guess. Just because he wasn't a bad person didn't mean he wasn't a bad husband. In the end, he did became verbally abusive in an effort to keep me from leaving him...telling me no one would ever love me....I'm simply unlovable....is that a word? He told me I couldn't make it without him....I'd end up with someone who'd treat me like shit....that my son would be all messed up from the broken home.....etc. *sigh* I don't believe "staying for the kids" does any good for the people in the relationship or the kids. Your kids are learning how relationships work from YOU. If all they ever see is a total lack of respect for each other, cold silence, bickering, fighting, nagging, etc., what are you teaching them, really? It's okay to treat your spouse like crap? This is how normal married people live? My mom stayed married to an alcoholic "for the kids" and financial stability. Um...I didn't see it as any great favor to me! I could've done without all that, really. If you can put on a happy face until your kids are grown, how in the hell are you going to explain that their entire life has been a lie? Just something to think about....

respectfully i can only speak for myself, i hope that my children never think of their lives as a lie, that they realize their parents are and were not perfect, are human and did and do make the choices that they believe are the best at the time. Personally i've had friends whose parents divorced and they are sure things would have been better if they'd stuck it out, and ones who wished that mom and dad had called it quits, it is impossible to step into anyone else's shoes. i balance each and every decision i make as i'm sure others do in their circumstances. So i never expect to have to explain to my kids anything about their lives not being anything but real, with the ups and downs, foibles and follies and all else that life entails. So something to think about for me each day is that i love my kids beyond words (and they know it!)...their life is real, their mom is human and the good bad and ugly, she works to give them the best life, not the perfect life, the best...they may or may not agree or disagree with the choices made, but there will never be a moment they can doubt that it was made with the best intentions

[Flaming_Redhead]

So, the kids grow up thinking mom and dad are happy and everything is fine, and after about 18 years, when they're teens, you tell them you're divorcing....um....okay....well....my ex-sister-in-law did that. Her kids had the $120 Adidas sneakers and whatever else they wanted growing up, but when she dropped the D bomb, her kids went ballistic! Her daughter had just graduated from high school. She ran off from home and got pregnant instead of going to college. Her middle child graduated the next year and joined the Marines to get away. Her youngest got ulcers. They barely have anything to do with their father. So much for the kids being old enough to "handle" it....

My son was 2. I don't think he even remembers us together, which is probably a good thing. We have to do what we think is best. Sometimes, we're wrong. My mom was wrong. I don't know if I was wrong or not, yet. I sure as hell hope I haven't screwed up my kid for life! *sigh*

[Isabelle90]

I need a new car!!

Did you notice the part about NOT having the billion dollars?!! Santa might be a better fictitious character to ask. (Hope I didn't just give away the secret to an unknowing soul!)

I suggest you start another thread.
This one probably hasn't run its course yet.

Really? I was trying to lighten the mood.

respectfully i can only speak for myself, i hope that my children never think of their lives as a lie, that they realize their parents are and were not perfect, are human and did and do make the choices that they believe are the best at the time. Personally i've had friends whose parents divorced and they are sure things would have been better if they'd stuck it out, and ones who wished that mom and dad had called it quits, it is impossible to step into anyone else's shoes. i balance each and every decision i make as i'm sure others do in their circumstances. So i never expect to have to explain to my kids anything about their lives not being anything but real, with the ups and downs, foibles and follies and all else that life entails. So something to think about for me each day is that i love my kids beyond words (and they know it!)...their life is real, their mom is human and the good bad and ugly, she works to give them the best life, not the perfect life, the best...they may or may not agree or disagree with the choices made, but there will never be a moment they can doubt that it was made with the best intentions

So, the kids grow up thinking mom and dad are happy and everything is fine, and after about 18 years, when they're teens, you tell them you're divorcing....um....okay....well....my ex-sister-in-law did that. Her kids had the $120 Adidas sneakers and whatever else they wanted growing up, but when she dropped the D bomb, her kids went ballistic! Her daughter had just graduated from high school. She ran off from home and got pregnant instead of going to college. Her middle child graduated the next year and joined the Marines to get away. Her youngest got ulcers. They barely have anything to do with their father. So much for the kids being old enough to "handle" it....

My son was 2. I don't think he even remembers us together, which is probably a good thing. We have to do what we think is best. Sometimes, we're wrong. My mom was wrong. I don't know if I was wrong or not, yet. I sure as hell hope I haven't screwed up my kid for life! *sigh*

My parents divorced when I was 25 after 27 years of marriage. I was an adult, but it was painful. The only relationship outside of marriage was one with alcohol. Anyway, even now it is difficult for our family to be together. My brother and I have children and refuse to have separate birthdays, baptisms, etc.

Here's the deal (in my mind - which we all know is questionable) I believe that as parents, we set the foundation for our children. How they "turn out" is ultimately determined by our parenting skills, or lack thereof. One cannot really judge the parenting skills of another based on the follies of teenagers. (Flaming Red, you probably know more about your nieces' & nephews' upbringing to have a greater understanding of their particular situation.) It's the end result that speaks volumes.

Flaming Red & Cali, I think you are both doing what you think is best for YOU and YOURS! Isn't that the best thing all around?