Young sub troubles

[TomOfSweden]

Tom in many parts of the world it's considered insulting to the highest degree to refer to gay men as 'fags'

It comes from a belief that they deserve to be burnt alive- faggots being the sticks of wood used to do it with.

Hm... I think the only gays who would be insulted by it, are gays who are actively looking for something to get offended by. I hang out a lot with gays, so I'd say I'm pretty "down with" acceptable lingo. I don't see any reason to bend over backward to avoid being culturally insensitive if nobody in the target group really cares.

I've got a funny story on that. I went to an International school as a kid and there was an issue about an old traditional ball game, called traditionally the quite politically incorrect word "nigger". But that was it's name and had been for a very long time. There was a debate to change it and there was a big meeting about it and a ballot for new names. The debate was lively. Toward the end of it there was three black guys in my class, all very black indeed from Africa who said that this was ridiculous they're going to keep calling it "nigger" and anybody who calls it anything else they would beat up. Just the fact that people took so much trouble to make them feel like overly sensitive special needs kids who needed to be tip toed around, they thought was more insulting than a name for a game we all knew had an archaic background and wasn't intended to insult.

I have a feeling it's the same deal with the "fag" thing. If anybody of homosexual persuasion get offended by the term "fag" let us know. I suspect that no gay person really takes offence no matter what debasing word for their group one uses. All the words have been way too much used and abused and have lost all their negative potency. At least, that's the vibe I pick up from my gay friends. But then again, this is just from my little gay pond in Sweden. So I could be wrong about other places in the world.

[underwhere]

Hm... I think the only gays who would be insulted by it, are gays who are actively looking for something to get offended by. I hang out a lot with gays, so I'd say I'm pretty "down with" acceptable lingo. I don't see any reason to bend over backward to avoid being culturally insensitive if nobody in the target group really cares.

Its a funny sort of thing, though. This, and your discussion of "nigger" which followed but which I am not quoting to save space, is one of those things whereby there seems to be rather a double-standard as far as who can use the words and who can't. For example, I am white. My great grandparents came from Europe (Poland and parts of the former Soviet Union). I have no "black" in my heritage at all. If I were to even say the word "nigger" in the context of any conversation, I'd be instantly declared a racist person when nothing could be further from the truth. Contrast this to my observations of many blacks talking among themselves and the use of such a word seems to fly off the tip of their tongue at rapid pace when talking to each other. (Perhaps this is something of the younger generation.)

With regard specifically to finding suitable people to "play with", its probably safer to avoid using words which could potentially be inflammatory, both in writing and in speech, because you never know who you might offend.

[TomOfSweden]

With regard specifically to finding suitable people to "play with", its probably safer to avoid using words which could potentially be inflammatory, both in writing and in speech, because you never know who you might offend.

As far as "fag" is concerned I think it's a question of communication and what is commonly used. Dan Savage, which is mainstream of mainstream gay media.... uses the word "fag" constantly. I blame him.

I'm sorry if I reacted strongly. But trying very hard not to offend various groups I think is the hallmark of cultural relativism, which is a movement I strongly detest. Conflict is good. In conflict we learn. If we're constantly tip toeing around to avoid insulting various groups we:

1) will never understand what various groups really find insulting.
2) won't know why they find it insulting.
3) hampering communication by focusing on the wrong things.
4) limiting our usable vocabulary, (I like naughty words).

Anyhoo, I can see both sides of this argument. There's a time and place for everything. But this forum, is for me, a place to learn.