Gender

[voxelectronica]

Note that I'm not quoting anyone on this, it's just a feeling i get from the last couple of posts and my responses to them.

The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.

The truth is (and I've seen this especially in lesbians) what people are attracted to is wildly different even in the same person. There are a lot of angular lesbians who attract a lot of lesbian attention.

I also very much like social roles because they have their place. Women are scientifically different than men and from those scientific difference we derive our stereotypes.

Martha is the BEST example of that actually. Women have more white matter which makes them better at lying, communication, language, and manipulation. Martha more times than not simply used those to her advantage in her empire. She didn't get ahead by "out manning" a man in a "man's world"... she did it by out womaning him. Women are meant to get ahead... quietly.

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

I don't think that it's your junk which defines you as your gender as a lot (if not all) transgenders will tell you, it's how you feel and they are real men and real women based off how they feel and act.

[blythe spirit]

Men and lesbians are attracted to curves.
Women and gay men are attracted to angles.

Is that the norm, Oz, based on research? The reason I'm questioning it, is because I know too many men who don't like curves. They're attracted more to straight lines.

The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.

I don't believe you (collectively) can equate curves with chubby. Curves are a shape, whilst chubby is more so defined as being slightly overweight.

[voxelectronica]

I don't believe you (collectively) can equate curves with chubby. Curves are a shape, whilst chubby is more so defined as being slightly overweight.

The state of being chubby gives you the shapes of curves. That's not saying all curvy women are over weight. In high school I remember telling some really mean fat girl that my curves, curved in while her's curved out.

If all straight men and lesbians liked the shape of curves then they would have found both me and the ridiculously overweight girl equally appealing. I just don't see how that would be true.

[Ozme52]

The state of being chubby gives you the shapes of curves. That's not saying all curvy women are over weight. In high school I remember telling some really mean fat girl that my curves, curved in while her's curved out.

If all straight men and lesbians liked the shape of curves then they would have found both me and the ridiculously overweight girl equally appealing. I just don't see how that would be true.

Obviously you don't want to consider the concept that it's about how we're wired in the brain... which is what the post was about... and the discussion of shapes described how I got to the concept!!

There are other cues that cause us to react, (you know, cues that create feelings in us,) both visual, such as facial hair, aural cues, olfactory cues. The things that help us recognize whom we're interfacing with. They cause reactions in the brain and thus feelings about our place in relation to the person we're in contact with.

[Ozme52]

Is that the norm, Oz, based on research? The reason I'm questioning it, is because I know too many men who don't like curves. They're attracted more to straight lines.

As I said, it was just an observation of mine.

Nor was I suggesting there was a normative type. No specific set of curves or angles. Just a generality.

[hopperboo]

White matter? lol.

[Ozme52]

Note that I'm not quoting anyone on this, it's just a feeling i get from the last couple of posts and my responses to them.

The idea that lesbians and straight men like curves and gay men and women like angles is way off base. If that were the truth then all lesbians and straight men would also like anyone who was chubby.

Well no one else said anything like this... so you must mean me.

I was just pointing out one aspect. Visual cues. And if you want to quibble after I already said I knew I was oversimplifying the idea... fine. So let's quibble.

The truth is (and I've seen this especially in lesbians) what people are attracted to is wildly different even in the same person. There are a lot of angular lesbians who attract a lot of lesbian attention.

How am I "off base" for pointing out something "I" obsrved and believe, but you know "the truth" because you've "seen" it?

I also very much like social roles because they have their place. Women are scientifically different than men and from those scientific difference we derive our stereotypes.

What!!! Do women have a different set of scientific theories than men? I mean yeah, individuals may disagree on how the world works... but I have NEVER heard anyone say there's a basic gender-driven basis for what men and women believe to be true.

Martha is the BEST example of that actually. Women have more white matter which makes them better at lying, communication, language, and manipulation. Martha more times than not simply used those to her advantage in her empire. She didn't get ahead by "out manning" a man in a "man's world"... she did it by out womaning him. Women are meant to get ahead... quietly.

Huh? Are you implying that scientific theories proposed by women are lies because they have more white matter? Or did you actually change the topic midstream... I'm disappointed that you think a woman can't be successful because she's smart... but has to lie to get ahead.

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

What the heck do you mean by "feel"? Where's it come from. What makes you "feel" the way you do? How does one "feel" masculine or feminine? If you're going to argue against something like visual cues being interpretted in the brain, give us something more than "feelings" because they're generated in the brain too... and ultimately, you're saying exactly the same thing as I said.

I don't think that it's your junk which defines you as your gender as a lot (if not all) transgenders will tell you, it's how you feel and they are real men and real women based off how they feel and act.

Yep. Exactly the same thing.

[voxelectronica]

I'm not arguing with someone who is openly angry and hostile.

[gloombunny]

For me, the biggest tell about gender roles are trannies. They FEEL feminine, they feel like their body needs to match that. When i start talking about hunting and camping i start to feel more masculine, so do a lot of m2f. It's when physical members of another gender identifies with feelings and attitudes that they all believe to be of the opposite gender to the degree that they must change their physical appearance that you have to accept there is a difference.

I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it kind of sounds like you're saying that, for instance, an MTF transsexual is someone who identifies with feminine attitudes so much that they go through all the hassles necessary to get a female body? 'cuz that really isn't how it works. Transsexuality isn't about how feminine or masculine you are or want to be. Like with me - I'm transsexual (female, born with a male body that I'm in the process of female-izing), but I have a pretty strong butch streak in my womanhood. I wouldn't describe myself as very feminine, but I consider myself very much female nonetheless.

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.


edit: My first post in months and it's about transgender issues. I guess I'm kind of predictable.

[voxelectronica]

If there's one thing I've learned from years of talking to and reading the writings of and about various sorts of transgendered people, it's that things are far, far more intricate and complicated than you'd ever imagine without getting really into it. The closer you look, the more subtle-yet-significant distinctions and variations you find. There are more identities in sex and gender than are dreamt of in your philosophy... no matter what your philosophy is, as far as I can tell. Learning not to try to make sense of everything with some kind of general theory has been a difficult but valuable lesson for me.

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

[gloombunny]

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

Well, except some of them do. The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear. I didn't mean to restrict anything that I said to only transsexuals - I was talking about anyone whose gender identity or expression is atypical for their anatomical birth sex, if they even have a clearly identifiable sex. (Some people don't.)

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

Sounds like I misunderstood you at first, then. I agree that there are definite mental states of male and female that are independent of one's physical sex. Julia Serano, who I admit to being a bit of a fangirl of, calls it "subconscious sex" - the sex of your mind at a fundamental level, which matches the physical birth sex for most people, but can cause great distress when it doesn't match. But just as there are intersexed people whose physical birth sex isn't clearly male or female, there are people who seem to have a subconscious sex that doesn't cleanly fit into male or female either.

[voxelectronica]

Well, except some of them do.
The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear.

In regards to butch lesbians lopping their tits off at that point they're more a straight male. (If they are lopping them off to be SEEN as male.) For me it's just a matter of what you want the rest of the world to see you as. Though this is getting a bit into semantics.

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

absolutely! There isn't anything in the tran brain that would make it so a doctor could tell the difference and it does resemble the female brain more. It is however uniquely different as it does belong to a male body. (vise versa for MtF)

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

Then you *are* a woman and not a third fourth of fifth anything. I personally use a point system to figure out what I am on any given day. Then i determine how I'm going to dress, act, smell. (smell is HUGE for me). I'm not pushing anyone into a gender. I am however saying that society needs it's stereotypes. Even the most "open minded" uses them to some degree. I would rather have a society that had three genders recognized over two.

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

[fantasien]

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

Hmmm. thats where i am to. why cant we just have one big group bathroom. I mean other colleges has coed locker rooms and bathrooms including showers and everything. So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

[hopperboo]

So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.