Gender

[gloombunny]

But isn't that the case in biological women as well? A biological man and women can both have both masculine and feminine traits. Butch lesbians don't lop their tits off and buy a strap on.

Well, except some of them do. The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear. I didn't mean to restrict anything that I said to only transsexuals - I was talking about anyone whose gender identity or expression is atypical for their anatomical birth sex, if they even have a clearly identifiable sex. (Some people don't.)

What i am saying is that there is something that is identifiable of female. I believe in the proven fact that there is a difference in the female and the male brain. There is also a noticeable difference in the Transgendered brain which is why i support the ideology of a third gender. (more prevalent in Eastern cultures).

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

I'm not saying that transgendered has anything to do with stereotypical roles of femininity. If that were the case it would be almost unheard of to see lesbian transgendered which is not the case... at all. I am saying that there is a mental state of female and a mental state of male. You can be a butch girl. I'm incredibly "lady like" in my day to day comings and goings, that doesn't mean i can't shot a gun, clean a fish, swing a sword etc. I don't think that being a butch girl negates having to accept that there is a difference in gender.

Sounds like I misunderstood you at first, then. I agree that there are definite mental states of male and female that are independent of one's physical sex. Julia Serano, who I admit to being a bit of a fangirl of, calls it "subconscious sex" - the sex of your mind at a fundamental level, which matches the physical birth sex for most people, but can cause great distress when it doesn't match. But just as there are intersexed people whose physical birth sex isn't clearly male or female, there are people who seem to have a subconscious sex that doesn't cleanly fit into male or female either.

[voxelectronica]

Well, except some of them do.
The line between butch and FTM isn't always so clear.

In regards to butch lesbians lopping their tits off at that point they're more a straight male. (If they are lopping them off to be SEEN as male.) For me it's just a matter of what you want the rest of the world to see you as. Though this is getting a bit into semantics.

There are differences between average male brains and average female brains, but individuals vary widely. And the studies I've heard of have indicated that transsexual women have brains similar to cis women, and same for men, not that there's a third kind of brain.

absolutely! There isn't anything in the tran brain that would make it so a doctor could tell the difference and it does resemble the female brain more. It is however uniquely different as it does belong to a male body. (vise versa for MtF)

(And why stop at three? There's at least one culture that recognizes five genders. Just be careful not to push anyone into a gender they don't want - I identify strongly as a woman, not a third anything, for instance.)

Then you *are* a woman and not a third fourth of fifth anything. I personally use a point system to figure out what I am on any given day. Then i determine how I'm going to dress, act, smell. (smell is HUGE for me). I'm not pushing anyone into a gender. I am however saying that society needs it's stereotypes. Even the most "open minded" uses them to some degree. I would rather have a society that had three genders recognized over two.

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

[fantasien]

Then again I would feel more comfortable going to the mens room. Hate that it's an ugly real girl (who looks more like some sort of beast) who has a problem with a beautiful T girl using the girls bathroom and wish that there was just one big bathroom.

Hmmm. thats where i am to. why cant we just have one big group bathroom. I mean other colleges has coed locker rooms and bathrooms including showers and everything. So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

[hopperboo]

So why do they have to be separated by gender or sex?

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

[gloombunny]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.

[hopperboo]

It's pretty harsh on the minority of people who can't use either bathroom without being harassed, though.

I really don't mean this to come off bitchy or offensive (seriously), but this isn't a perfect world.

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

The second people stop treating people on based on their gender someone else is going to be offended because they aren't being treated based on their gender.

It's impossible to make everyone happy.

[gloombunny]

Some people are going to get offended, and if some of them are purposely trying to look different, then...I dunno. If one is trying to look like a guy or a girl, then they should be prepared to be treated as such.

I'm not talking about people who are purposely trying to look different, and I'm certainly not talking about people who are unhappy about getting treated as the gender they're trying to look like. (Wtf?) I'm talking about people who look enough unlike either gender that they aren't welcome in either bathroom. Either because they're in the middle of a transition, or because the transitioning treatments just haven't worked very well on them, or just because the only appearance they're comfortable with is somewhat in the middle gender-wise.

[voxelectronica]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.



While I was in Paris I was extremely uncomfortable with their bathroom...whatever. We went to this one restaurant and a man came down the stairs (to the bathroom area where we were waiting) while he was unbuttoning his pants.

And the urinal he was using was not closed off. I about died.

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

[fantasien]

Just like you i don't mean to sound bitchy but this is because you're an uptight American.

I was raised in Europe and went back in my late teens. I'm used to bare breasts in stores selling bear. As Americans we are much happier with violence than we are with sex and it's daft. It isn't your fault it was how you were raised but it's still pointless. If i ever own my own business... unisex bathroom.

It's not just that i think that bathrooms should be integrated because of transgendered issues. I think that American's need to get over their ridiculous prudish behavior. I think this idea that so many people have about how everyone wants to see their no no bits is a leading factor in this "omg is that girl going to look at me in the bathroom?" crap.

I am right there with you dear! Join me!! And we will fight to the finish until we can accomplish bathroom intigration of the sexes.

[leo9]

Because the majority of the people like to have separate bathrooms.

And in several countries in living memory, there were separate toilets for different races, and people would be shocked if they had to share one with someone of the right sex but the wrong colour.

Just a thought to ponder.