Male discrimination?

[Thorne]

That can't happen because men and women are different. It's not a social construct that I am stronger than 99% of all women, it's biology because of differing hormone levels. Jobs that require enormous amounts of physical exertion will always be male dominated fields. It is not a social construct that says my girlfriend can't lift me upp if I were unconscious on the floor. Therefore, there are certain jobs that will always require much more male input than female input. These jobs happpen to be dangerous. Women won't be drafted because the average woman would not be as effective in combat as the average man.

This has got to be the greatest load of horse shit I've seen in quite a while. Just because you're stronger than most women (and maybe even most men for all I know) doesn't mean a woman can't do most of the jobs that you can do. And some jobs they will do better than you. You might have a steroid-enhanced physique that makes you look (and act) like the Hulk! But just try soldering a delicate component onto a circuit board in a field repair and see how well your strength helps. Need to haul a deuce-and-a-half up a hill? Great, grab a pile of muscle-bound jocks and have them haul their hearts out. OR you can grab a power-winch and let Twiggy do the job a lot faster.

As for women in combat, I suggest you rethink! Just look at the Israeli Army. They've had women in combat units for decades, and they can fight just as well and just as hard and just as long as any of the men. Sure, there may be situations where brute strength works best. And there are situations where being small, quick and quiet will work better. BOTH kinds of soldiers are needed, working as teams.

It's this kind of thinking, that women are less than men, that make women targets in society. They aren't looked upon as real people but as property, to be used at the whim of the man. If you treat women as equals, and really understand, deep down, that they are equals, you and they will be far better off. Give women the respect they deserve, the same kind of respect you think YOU deserve. They've earned it.

[Punish_her]

this is a pathetically stupid argument you're making
yes, there are machines that allow women to do jobs that men can do. a woman can operate a forklift just like a man. then next time you move, instead hiring movers, rent a forklift if you feel the need to
Or maybe if I'm unconscious in a burning building, and the average female fire fighter can't pick my limp body up, should she just call ahead for a forklift or the jaws of life?
and no, women cannot fight just as long as men can and just as hard as men can, but because you seem to love living in a nice, oblivious place, i'll spell it out for you why:
1) upon completion of basic training, the average male can throw a grenade 40 yards, and a female can throw it 15 yards. a grenade's blast radius is about 15 yards
2) women have lower bone density, and a statistically significant portion of women fail to complete basic training because of stress fractures that come from heavy physical exertion
3) a statistically significant portion of women are combat ineffective during their periods
and while israel may conscript women, they rarely, if ever, serve on front line duty

[thir]

this is a pathetically stupid argument you're making
yes, there are machines that allow women to do jobs that men can do. a woman can operate a forklift just like a man. then next time you move, instead hiring movers, rent a forklift if you feel the need to
Or maybe if I'm unconscious in a burning building, and the average female fire fighter can't pick my limp body up, should she just call ahead for a forklift or the jaws of life?
and no, women cannot fight just as long as men can and just as hard as men can, but because you seem to love living in a nice, oblivious place, i'll spell it out for you why:
1) upon completion of basic training, the average male can throw a grenade 40 yards, and a female can throw it 15 yards. a grenade's blast radius is about 15 yards
2) women have lower bone density, and a statistically significant portion of women fail to complete basic training because of stress fractures that come from heavy physical exertion
3) a statistically significant portion of women are combat ineffective during their periods
and while israel may conscript women, they rarely, if ever, serve on front line duty

"From the beginning of the 1970s, most Western armies began to admit women to serve active duty.[2] Only some of them permit women to fill active combat roles, including Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, Italy, Germany, Norway, Israel, Serbia, Sweden and Switzerland."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military

In Russia they have done it for ages. Also, women were serving on the convoys during ww2, where many ships and lives were lost.

I am no friend of war, which in most cases are idiotic in the extreme and not neccesary. But if men are drafted, women should be too. Equal rights, equal responsibilities.

I do not like the draft etiher. I think people should vote whether they want to go to war or not, if they agree with it or not. to be forced to fight for something you might think is stupid or maybe just plain wrong, is not democratic.

As for non-military uprisings or revolutions, women are have been there in a many cases.

[leo9]

Or maybe if I'm unconscious in a burning building, and the average female fire fighter can't pick my limp body up, should she just call ahead for a forklift or the jaws of life?

The average female firefighter can pick your limp body up. If she couldn't, she wouldn't have qualified for the job.

You're making the textbook mistake of confusing the average with the individual. On average, women are better at organisation, but that doesn't mean you should be ruled out from any administrative post because of your sex. You might be as good as a woman...

[Punish_her]

The average female firefighter can pick your limp body up. If she couldn't, she wouldn't have qualified for the job.

You're making the textbook mistake of confusing the average with the individual. On average, women are better at organisation, but that doesn't mean you should be ruled out from any administrative post because of your sex. You might be as good as a woman...

this assumes that the qualifications are the same for men and women. in chicago, due to political pressure and accusations of discrimination, the fire department had to remove whole sections of the test to allow more females to pass. in the us military, at every age bracket, men are required to perform at least double the amount of pushups as women, and run 2 miles in at least 3 less minutes.
while some women undoubtedly can perform as well as men, they are in the extreme minority, and it usually requires much more taining to bring them up to the same level as men.
west point monitors the physical progress of cadets, and not only do men enter with more physical ability, when they graduate, that gap has actually widened.
and yes, i hope i would not be ruled out of administration jobs because of my sex, but it would be just as wrong to lower my standards because i am a man

[Punish_her]

This has got to be the greatest load of horse shit I've seen in quite a while. Just because you're stronger than most women (and maybe even most men for all I know) doesn't mean a woman can't do most of the jobs that you can do. And some jobs they will do better than you. You might have a steroid-enhanced physique that makes you look (and act) like the Hulk! But just try soldering a delicate component onto a circuit board in a field repair and see how well your strength helps. Need to haul a deuce-and-a-half up a hill? Great, grab a pile of muscle-bound jocks and have them haul their hearts out. OR you can grab a power-winch and let Twiggy do the job a lot faster.

As for women in combat, I suggest you rethink! Just look at the Israeli Army. They've had women in combat units for decades, and they can fight just as well and just as hard and just as long as any of the men. Sure, there may be situations where brute strength works best. And there are situations where being small, quick and quiet will work better. BOTH kinds of soldiers are needed, working as teams.

It's this kind of thinking, that women are less than men, that make women targets in society. They aren't looked upon as real people but as property, to be used at the whim of the man. If you treat women as equals, and really understand, deep down, that they are equals, you and they will be far better off. Give women the respect they deserve, the same kind of respect you think YOU deserve. They've earned it.

and yea, you're right,women are victims in our society
they don'tget drafted(not a single woman died in combat from america in the 20th century)
they got rushed off the titanic first, and are usually given preferential treatment even now in disasters
and oh yea, the stimulus package was heavily skewed towards women despite most jobs lost were male dominated fields
98% of alimony payments go from male to female despite 40% of women outearning men
and there are now about 10 states that have mandatory arrest laws for police responding to domestic disturbances, and the male is always arrested, by law,even if he called the police saying his wife was attacking him

yup, victims indeed

[Thorne]

(not a single woman died in combat from america in the 20th century)

Absolutely not true!
Marion G. Crandall, Alameda, California, killed by enemy shell in March 1918 at Ste. Menehould, France.
Winona Martin, Rockville Center, N.Y. killed in a Paris air raid in March 1918.
Ruth Landon, NYC, New York, killed by a shell fired on St Gervais Church, Paris, France, March 1918.
One hundred and eleven Army Nurses died overseas and one hundred and eighty six died stateside, all while serving their country in WWI. Twenty two or more U.S. Navy Yeoman (F) died during the World War. Twenty seven Navy Nurse Corps women died while serving. Dieticians, telephone operators, YMCA volunteers, Red Cross and Salvation Army women, and women in military intelligence also lost their lives.

And that's only one year! Check the link for women who died serving their country in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and on into the 21st century. Just because they weren't allowed to shoot back doesn't make them any less casualties of war.

they got rushed off the titanic first, and are usually given preferential treatment even now in disasters

There were 316 women who survived the Titanic, and 338 men. Doesn't sound so preferential to me!

and oh yea, the stimulus package was heavily skewed towards women despite most jobs lost were male dominated fields

Fields in which women who perform the same tasks as men make significantly less pay!

98% of alimony payments go from male to female despite 40% of women outearning men

But the number of women paying alimony is rising. And how many men actually seek alimony from their wives, even when those wives have earned more. There are many reasons for this discrepancy, many of the based on social prejudices which men have perpetuated!

and there are now about 10 states that have mandatory arrest laws for police responding to domestic disturbances, and the male is always arrested, by law,even if he called the police saying his wife was attacking him

That sounds suspicious. I'd like to see a citation on that. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd be surprised to find it to be built into the law. That would, indeed, be discrimination. What springs to my mind (more speculation, based on TV cop shows) is the husband who strikes his wife, then calls the cops when she fights back. I've also seen the other way, her calling the cops, then being arrested because she attacked him first.

[Punish_her]

Absolutely not true!
Marion G. Crandall, Alameda, California, killed by enemy shell in March 1918 at Ste. Menehould, France.
Winona Martin, Rockville Center, N.Y. killed in a Paris air raid in March 1918.
Ruth Landon, NYC, New York, killed by a shell fired on St Gervais Church, Paris, France, March 1918.
One hundred and eleven Army Nurses died overseas and one hundred and eighty six died stateside, all while serving their country in WWI. Twenty two or more U.S. Navy Yeoman (F) died during the World War. Twenty seven Navy Nurse Corps women died while serving. Dieticians, telephone operators, YMCA volunteers, Red Cross and Salvation Army women, and women in military intelligence also lost their lives.

And that's only one year! Check the link for women who died serving their country in WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm and on into the 21st century. Just because they weren't allowed to shoot back doesn't make them any less casualties of war.


There were 316 women who survived the Titanic, and 338 men. Doesn't sound so preferential to me!


Fields in which women who perform the same tasks as men make significantly less pay!


But the number of women paying alimony is rising. And how many men actually seek alimony from their wives, even when those wives have earned more. There are many reasons for this discrepancy, many of the based on social prejudices which men have perpetuated!


That sounds suspicious. I'd like to see a citation on that. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd be surprised to find it to be built into the law. That would, indeed, be discrimination. What springs to my mind (more speculation, based on TV cop shows) is the husband who strikes his wife, then calls the cops when she fights back. I've also seen the other way, her calling the cops, then being arrested because she attacked him first.

being a civillian and having a bomb dropped on you is not dying in combat. the people who died on 9/11 did not die in combat, it's dying as a result of war. there's a difference

women making less money for the same job is the biggest load of horseshit ever. women earn less than men because they're less likely to commute or travel as far, less likely to work overtime, and far more likely to take a huge portion of time off for maternity leave, and that was a lame response

there were far more men on the tiitanic. 1,347 men died, 103 women died

Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Mississippi, Nevada, New Jersey, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah, Virginia, Washington, and Wisconsin all have mandatory arrest laws, where police are required to arrest the bigger, strongerof the two which will almost always be male. In new jersey, the wording of the law addresses the aggressor in masculine pronouns only

[thir]

and yea, you're right,women are victims in our society
they don'tget drafted (not a single woman died in combat from america in the 20th century)

In your society, not everybodies.
But, according to you that is not discrimination against men, but because they cannot do the job, right?

they got rushed off the titanic first,

That would be the first and second class women, the rest never got a chance, men or women.

and are usually given preferential treatment even now in disasters

What disasters are you talking about? Wars? They die as everybody else, and get raped. Floods, tsunamis, earthquakes, volcano eruptions? What preferential treatment can you do in those situations?

and oh yea, the stimulus package was heavily skewed towards women despite most jobs lost were male dominated fields

I do not know about that. An American law? And what does it matter if jobs are in male dominated fields? Surely males can take female dominated jobs too?

98% of alimony payments go from male to female despite 40% of women outearning men

There are think you have a point in a number of situations.

and there are now about 10 states that have mandatory arrest laws for police responding to domestic disturbances,

Well, obviously

and the male is always arrested, by law,even if he called the police saying his wife was attacking him

Now that is just plain wrong!

[Thorne]

they got rushed off the titanic first, and are usually given preferential treatment even now in disasters

Just ran across this. Seems "women and children first" isn't as common as some think!

[thir]

This has got to be the greatest load of horse shit I've seen in quite a while. Just because you're stronger than most women (and maybe even most men for all I know) doesn't mean a woman can't do most of the jobs that you can do. And some jobs they will do better than you. You might have a steroid-enhanced physique that makes you look (and act) like the Hulk! But just try soldering a delicate component onto a circuit board in a field repair and see how well your strength helps. Need to haul a deuce-and-a-half up a hill? Great, grab a pile of muscle-bound jocks and have them haul their hearts out. OR you can grab a power-winch and let Twiggy do the job a lot faster.

As for women in combat, I suggest you rethink! Just look at the Israeli Army. They've had women in combat units for decades, and they can fight just as well and just as hard and just as long as any of the men. Sure, there may be situations where brute strength works best. And there are situations where being small, quick and quiet will work better. BOTH kinds of soldiers are needed, working as teams.

It's this kind of thinking, that women are less than men, that make women targets in society. They aren't looked upon as real people but as property, to be used at the whim of the man. If you treat women as equals, and really understand, deep down, that they are equals, you and they will be far better off. Give women the respect they deserve, the same kind of respect you think YOU deserve. They've earned it.

What I like about your post is that you do not confuse 'equal' with 'identical', as many people seem to do.

[Thorne]

What I like about your post is that you do not confuse 'equal' with 'identical', as many people seem to do.

Well, it's obvious that men and women aren't identical. There are physical and even mental differences. That doesn't make either sex inherently better than the other, just means that there are some things one sex can generally do better than the other. However, there are a hell of a lot more things that both can do equally well, with or without testosterone. Regardless, if you're doing the same job you should be getting the same compensation.

[leo9]

Well, it's obvious that men and women aren't identical. There are physical and even mental differences. That doesn't make either sex inherently better than the other, just means that there are some things one sex can generally do better than the other. However, there are a hell of a lot more things that both can do equally well, with or without testosterone. Regardless, if you're doing the same job you should be getting the same compensation.

It's about looking at the person and not the average or the stereotype. Women on average have less muscular strength (though more stamina), but professions that need strength, like the fire service, have long ago accepted that they should let anyone take the tests, and not assume that a candidate must be too weak because she doesn't have balls.

A lot of basketball players are black, because some African subraces are markedly taller than average, but that doesn't mean white men can't jump.

[Thorne]

Women on average have less muscular strength (though more stamina), but professions that need strength, like the fire service

Something I noticed yesterday while checking up about women casualties in war: it was always assumed that women couldn't handle modern fighter jets because their lower bone density and other physical aspects would make them less able to handle high-G maneuvers. When tested, though, it was determined that women (on average) could handle such stresses better than their male counterparts! Makes you wonder just how many of those things that "men can naturally do better" have been tested.

[leo9]

Something I noticed yesterday while checking up about women casualties in war: it was always assumed that women couldn't handle modern fighter jets because their lower bone density and other physical aspects would make them less able to handle high-G maneuvers. When tested, though, it was determined that women (on average) could handle such stresses better than their male counterparts! Makes you wonder just how many of those things that "men can naturally do better" have been tested.

Thanks for that fascinating tip! And yes, there are a lot of those assumptions that nobody has checked.

I'm reminded of a case in the '60s where a black guy was refused a job in a frozen food warehouse because, you know, black people are from Africa so they can't stand cold like us.