Relationships outside of marriage

[caligirl{Rob}]

my kids don't get everything they want, i love them, their father loves them, i don't live in anyone else's skin, nor do they in mine...kids go ballistic in all sorts of homes and situations,...and for me it has not to do with them being older to "handle" it...it has to do with the realities of life, my life, my situation, my responsibility...as i said earlier i do not look for approval...am i wrong...some of the time, am i right...some of the time...i appreciate all of your experiences..to think that any decision made is done without thought for consequences is wrong, i do not propose that anyone staying or leaving a marriage is right or wrong...the individual factors involved would make it an impossible feat to predict

[annie]

As far as child rearing and the situation...

Probably one of the few things hubby and I agree on unconditionally. Our goal... to be the best possible parents, ensure they have a good education, etc. so that they can afford to pay for counseling, due to our errors, both known and unknown, when they get older. Seems like a reasonable solution...

[caligirl{Rob}]

As far as child rearing and the situation...

Probably one of the few things hubby and I agree on unconditionally. Our goal... to be the best possible parents, ensure they have a good education, etc. so that they can afford to pay for counseling, due to our errors, both known and unknown, when they get older. Seems like a reasonable solution...

lmao! sounds like a damn great plan to me!

[Captain]

I think any kind of relationship without the other partner’s knowing and consenting, is cheating. I hope that if it ever came to this, that I would have the balls to end the relationship before entering into a new one (out of respect for everyone involved).

My wife had a friend a few years ago who was having an affair with a married man. I think her friend knew it was wrong, but was always seeking justification and approval from my wife. My wife did not believe it was right and would not give her approval. I could tell that it was really bothering my wife, so I told her to stop hanging out with her.

My marriage isn’t perfect. My wife has even talked about leaving when we’ve had problems, but I have complete faith that she would not cheat on me (maybe I’m just too naive). We are starting to communicate better….or I should say that I’m starting to communicate better, she never had a problem. BDSM and this forum have been huge factors in helping me be more open with her. I never understood her submissive side until I learned about it on the internet. I have always been very calm, reserved and quiet, as well as the rest of my family. I regret that it’s taken me this long to realize how important communication is in our relationship (verbal and non verbal).

The posts above talk about how their lives have changed over time. Ours is no exception. My wife admits that she probably wouldn’t have been interested in BDSM 10 years ago, now she can’t get enough. Neither can I !!! I never knew she was willing to do so many things to make me happy!!

Well I certainly don’t have all of the answers or consider myself to be on some kind of “moral high ground”, but in almost every case I would not condone cheating. I say almost, because I know every situation if different. No one knows what goes on behind closed doors.

[Stone]

Ok

I will pipe in on this you will either hate what I say or love it.When you get married you make a sacred vow to your partner in front of your family friends and god. I have yet to hear of anyones vowes stating I will only be faithful to you if I am happy. I will only be faithful to you if I get what I want. I will only be faithful to you if I do not find someone new and exciting.

If your read that carefully the term "I" alot no we no us. this is a sign of the times everyone only cares about themselfs. To those who say they cheat to stay with thier husband and children?????? WTF? does that really make any sence to you at all? That is like saying ohhh I am going to go shoot myslef to avoid being murdered in some random act of violence or an accident or something along those lines. If you really careed about your kids you would split instead of the very real and very possible really nasty divorce.

Now to those who do it online behind your spouces back online. Well this is where people will say its online and its really not cheating it is online........Well I have seen stated by these very same people that an online relationship is very real and it is a real relationship.....hypocrytes use one side of the arguement to excuse it and the other to defend it.

I have been in that stagnet relationship I have a child I lost total sexual interest in my partner I stayed with her for financial reason for the child for any and every reason anyone can come up with and guess what I did not cheat but I came to the realization that it was doing me her and the child harm...kids are alot smarter than people give them credit for you might not think they know there is something wrong but they might.

I have yet to hear a good excuse to cheat and stay with your spouse, Now if its ok with your spouse then it is ok..... to each their own.

Plus lets not forget one fact the cheaters should not forget once a cheater allways a cheater

[sidhewolf]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

It seems, to me, that this is not an uncommon practice, and I was curious as to what others thought of the matter.

Personally, I am a more "concrete" person. That is, grasping my mind around an online relationship is much like reading something by Stephen Hawking. It takes some time for it to sink in. I need to see, touch, taste, smell, and hear. I don't possess the sixth sense. "Abstract" does not really appeal to me as much. Ye of little faith and all that?

Isabelle I Agree with Your last paragraph largely. And the "need to see, touch, taste, smell"...though I do also have that 6th sense <G>. Online relating *to me* is not my Real Life. I do think online Roleplay is fun, and sometimes interesting, and online Friend(s) are fine. I in fact posted a topic this morning with questions to Other(s) about online Relating perspectives.

To Your question; " If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?"

I would say there's no way to Know Truly. If someone You know or are close to is lying to or cheating on someone they know or close to/Committed to, whatever would allow one to even think they won't have a go at that same situation with that person? I personally think a person is only as good as their word. If one wishes to Change their Agreements with their Partner(s), then the appropriate action would be to Re-Negotiate (if possible) or end the Relationship. Anyone can make any excuse for not keeping their Agreements with Other(s), but the bottom line *to me* is that one who does not keep their word, re-negotiate, or end what isn't working for them, has no guts to Live their Life, nor Honor. This is just my opinion, noone elses, and my response.

To Your Question; "When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage?".

I would say when it has been discussed and Agreed to, or Re-negotiated.
And again this is just my thoughts and opinion on the matter.

To the 2nd part of Your above question; "If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?"

I think this depends on the terms of ones Agreement(s) with their Partner(s). Whatever ones Agreements are, they should be Honored and complied with, re-negotiated, or ended.

Respectfully~SidheWolf

[TheVariableX]

I found this all rather depressing. Maybe we need a thread where people can tell us some success stories too.

[caligirl{Rob}]

i shall retreat to my glass house.....and leave the stones outside for others to throw...

[ThisYouWillDo]

Kids know.

Kids know grown-ups fuck-up.

I did.

My mother often threatened to leave, but she didn't.

This wasn't D/s ... just abuse.

She only got her life back when my father died. At least she had enough time left to enjoy it.

TYWD

(I think this is off topic a bit, or the topic has changed. Oh well - I got it off my chest and saved a fortune in psychiatrist's fees!)

[sipgirl]

I dont have much to add to this, but I will say this. The phrase "Once a cheater, always a cheater." Is simply not true, at least not in the experience of myself and the friends I discussed this topic and this post with last night. Cheating isnt always done because the cheater is a sexual deviant, cant control their urges, just wants to have sex. Cheating is also a form of escape for many whos marriages and/or relationships are disintegrating, abusive, one sided or for those who feel they are no longer emotionally attached to their significant other.
Everyone has their own opinions on this subject and it is mine that physical cheating involving sex or physical contact is one thing. Cheating with someone because you have feelings for them or they provide to you emotionally what you arent getting with your partner is another. Sex is sex...almost anyone can lay down and do it. Having an emotional attachment to someone other then your partner is very, very different. I am not defending cheating nor am I condemnig those who choose to do it and I am lucky enough that my husband happens to be my Dom. What I am saying is that no relationship is perfect, no human is perfect and really no one here has a right to judge either way.
May you find whatever it is that you are looking for.

[Ozme52]

i shall retreat to my glass house.....and leave the stones outside for others to throw...

You have my thoughts elsewhere.

I will await your return here as well.

[Isabelle90]

I found this all rather depressing. Maybe we need a thread where people can tell us some success stories too.

I'm with you X! I was trying to understand the dynamics of all of it, but whew! This was almost (almost) as intense as some of the threads on politics and religion.

Perhaps, I should stick to lighter topics, or fun and games.

[thrall]

I'm with you X! I was trying to understand the dynamics of all of it, but whew! This was almost (almost) as intense as some of the threads on politics and religion.

Perhaps, I should stick to lighter topics, or fun and games.

Dont you worry about it honey........ask away.. that is the intent of the forum. It is a very good topic.......Its just some times you may hit a raw nerve.....hugs

I agree with Cali about glass houses........hugs Cali.....and hands her an ice pack.

[annie]

I was going to post in response to several and defend my choice(s). But, have decided against it.

Basically, unless you are me and have lived the EXACT life, with the same people, circumstances, etc. then your words and response to this topic are nothing more then that. Yours. You may have handled the situations differently, but that is something that can never be completely proven... since you are NOT me.

We are all entitled too our opinions, just as I am entitled to make the choices I feel are best for me and mine. We can either agree to disagree on those views and move on or not. But I will no longer defend myself to anyone for being who I am and making the decisions I felt necessary in my situation. No one has to agree with me... but it isn't fair to judge or insult me in the process.

[thrall]

Alright everyone..........i think we may be scaring off a newby here.........

She is asking about HOW you can and Do accomplish a on-line D/s relationship and still be married......

What she needs and is asking for, is the support of everyone in discovering herself....the how's and how-to of having a marriage and an on line Dom......

Do not assume that she is being dishonest and that her husband does not know what is happing...........she is honestly looking for opinions........


ON HOW TO BE A SUBMISSIVE TRAPPED IN A VANILLA WORLD.........LETS TRY AND GET IT BACK ON TRACT FOR HER SHALL WE???

thrall

[Flaming_Redhead]

She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

[thrall]

She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

Flaming....i love you honey........but that kind of statement isn't going to make her very comfy in asking for information or posting a new thread now is it??


I understand that everyone is giving there honest opinion......and bravo for that.....

What im saying is that she is uncomfortable in the hostile turn of events........this was not the direction she wanted this thread to go.......

yes........she asked a two part question, so it hard to separate the two.


What she wants is the knowledge...........OF HOW TO EXPLORE HER NEW FOUND SUBMISSIVENESS........IN AN ON LINE WORLD.

And she is being very honest about what she is doing...........


OK, so i will start........

Yes you can have an on line relationship and explore you needs...........just be honest about everything you do with your husband. Let him know what you are doing and who you are talking to.

hugs..........

[annie]

Flaming....i love you honey........but that kind of statement isn't going to make her very comfy in asking for information or posting a new thread now is it??


I understand that everyone is giving there honest opinion......and bravo for that.....

What im saying is that she is uncomfortable in the hostile turn of events........this was not the direction she wanted this thread to go.......

yes........she asked a two part question, so it hard to separate the two.


What she wants is the knowledge...........OF HOW TO EXPLORE HER NEW FOUND SUBMISSIVENESS........IN AN ON LINE WORLD.

And she is being very honest about what she is doing...........


OK, so i will start........

Yes you can have an on line relationship and explore you needs...........just be honest about everything you do with your husband. Let him know what you are doing and who you are talking to.

hugs..........

Thrall,

What she asked was...

If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

And both of those questions have been answered by the people who posted in this thread. Just as you answered it... but each answer is still each persons own opinions. Bottom line, we are sharing out experiences, which is what she asked for from my understanding of the above question. The nature of the topic will at times create a heated atmosphere but ultimately she has to decide what works best for her. No one can decide that for her. And there is no cookie cutter answer to her questions.

She seems to be holding her own so far... I would guess that if she wanted platitudes she wouldn't be here.

[ThisYouWillDo]

A lively thread will not only deal with the questions originally posed, but will follow up incidental matters too. I don't think anyone has posted anything scary on this topic (except me perhaps - lol) and it will get back to the original question if anyone has any more to add. Then it will fade away or it will fly off at a complete tangent and deal with something else.

I love Isabelle's questions. She has a knack of exposing areas of D/s that people should have clear ideas about, but who too often have muddled opinions. And I'm one of the most muddled, I think.

TYWD

[Isabelle90]

Thrall was only trying to keep the thread on track as to my original questions. Thank you!

I was not passing judgement on anyone, but only wanted to know how people felt about it. Opinions can be strong and come from places deep within our souls. I want honest answers, but no pointing fingers, throwing food or rocks! Not that any were, but it felt a bit tense and a little depressing, like X said earlier.

Red, I will look at your skid marks, but I refuse to wash them!!! LOL

TYWD, so glad you enjoy my questions!!! You know I've got plenty!

[thrall]

hugs honey..........any time

[caged]

This IS a very interesting topic. There are loads of threads on these boards where various means of controlling a slave or sub are criticised because they apparently show there is no trust in the d/s relationship.

These comments often make me think 'God, I am just terrible, because I CAN'T honestly say I would never ever masturbate without permission without a chastity belt on, or would always always do my tasks without threat of punishment' etc etc. So...it's nice to remember that many of us on here indulge in the bdsm world secretly behind our partners' back.

And no, that's not a dig at anyone, because I've been there myself.

[Stone]

I was only giving my honest opinion I have experance in being in a failing relatioinship hell 2 of them but D/S saved my second one. I do understand not being happy But why not solve that problem before adding to it? I have seen the results of cheating on people and their families we all have and I have seen the results of people staying together and being uphappy and its affect on all involved. Life is full of choices we make them everyday some are harder than others.


Ok now to her questions of how to have a seperate relationship outside of a marrage? well it would take a very open minded husband. It will take honesty.

How to know if you can trust anyone? That is a hard one its often the people you trust the most that end up hurting you the most. I will say this and its something I have learned from personal experiance people who tell the truth well most of the time think everyone else is like them and they tell the truth most of the time.....people who lie most of the time assume that others lie most of the time its human nature to put your beliefs on others.

last thing about judging people we all do it if we admit it or not.

[Flaming_Redhead]

And reds, I'll come over and look at your skidmarked undies ANY time *giggles*

Red, I will look at your skid marks, but I refuse to wash them!!! LOL

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!

[NightNurse]

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage? If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

I took quite awhile and read all of the posts in this thread.. Besides feeling the strain in my eyes.. I'm feeling envious- ( of Oz and Captain and sipgirl..) and I'm feeling empathy for those who are submissive in a vanilla marriage that just isn't working......

Everyone here has had so much to say.... and everyone is entitled to their opinion... so here's mine.

For the first question... only you can decide what you believe.
The second question- No one can tell you when it's "okay" to do anything. YOU are the one who has to decide that.

Life would be soooo much easier if we could get concrete, black and white answers to questions like that wouldn't it?

As for all of the references to "cheating" and the breaking of marriage vows.. Why is it that everyone always reacts so strongly to that- when reality is the first vows usually broken are "love and cherish". If those vows weren't broken, maybe the remain faithful vow wouldn't be either.....

prepared for rotten vegetables and stones....

[Isabelle90]

IWe are starting to communicate better….or I should say that I’m starting to communicate better, she never had a problem.
....
I regret that it’s taken me this long to realize how important communication is in our relationship (verbal and non verbal).
....
I never knew she was willing to do so many things to make me happy!!

I have yet to hear of anyones vowes stating I will only be faithful to you if I am happy. I will only be faithful to you if I get what I want. I will only be faithful to you if I do not find someone new and exciting.

If your read that carefully the term "I" alot no we no us.

Why is it that everyone always reacts so strongly to that- when reality is the first vows usually broken are "love and cherish". If those vows weren't broken, maybe the remain faithful vow wouldn't be either.....[/I]

NurseNight you have great point with the love and cherish. Perhaps one or both people in a marriage are not feeling loved or being cherished. Isn't that ultimately what D/s relationships are all about?

Captain talked about how he and his wife worked together to change things. MasterStone commented about the "I" factor. Do you think that if couples worked on the love and cherish part as a "we" they could overcome and meet in the middle? Of course that would be wonderful!

I've heard people complain about their vanilla spouses, but are they doing anything to help the situation? Captain spoke about communication, MasterStone spoke of selfishness, two things that need be addressed in any marriage, in my opinion.

Tessa had a thread called "My Journey" that spoke to the challenges of bringing a spouse into this lifestyle. She seems to be doing it, albeit slowly (based on her posts). I've read enough threads and posts to get an idea of what goes on "behind spouses backs." The question of whether it's appropriate or not is so compelling to me.

MasterStone, you're right. We do judge. Maybe it's human nature, but I don't think it's always necessary to point fingers and openly criticize others. You stated your opinion and that's what I asked! Thank you!

The Bible, I believe, speaks about getting your own house in order first. We (society in general) tend to want to put the focus on others so that our own flaws aren't so apparent. Whether or not you are of any faith in particular, or none at all, the basic principal remains.

Here's the deal: I ask questions whether or not I have a desire to pursue anything. One cannot learn without asking questions. A dear friend told me recently that I would put most cats to shame with my curiosity. I wasn't offended!

[thrall]

HUGS

Ask away honey.........*wink*.......ask, ask, ask......

[His_blizzard]

I can only tell you this. I have known Cali since I joined the Library and I have met MR in person. They are truly in love and I believe that when the time is right they will be together and be very happy. I hope it can be soon. They were blessed to find one another.
I just had an ugly wake up call and may not have all the time in the world to finally be with Dragon, as we had once thought. (We have no other relationships in our way, but we have elderly parents and job responsibilities that keep us apart). And even though he is ill, I still can't leave to be with him, as much as I would like to. Mean old Master insists on being "practical". Pfffft! However, I would strongly encourage anyone that has had a long term, real life relationship with their Dominant or submissive, and are totally confident that this is what they need to be happy, to do whatever they can to make that relationship exclusive.
Just my 2 copper tarns worth..... "peace" ~blizz~

[Ruby]

What a great thread. Excellent questions and wonderful responses.

Many have said that a D/s relationship is one of honesty and respect. If someone is in a D/s relationship outside of a marriage, presumably vanilla, how can either of them (D/s couple) know that the other is being honest?

This one is tricky. How can anyone know that anyone else is being honest? Can we ever. It's about trusting that other person and keeping your eyes open at the same time.

I trust my Nat to be honest with me and I am honest with him. It works for us.

When is it "okay" to have a relationship outside of marriage?

For me, it was "okay" when my T, my husband and partner of 20+ years, approved of my online role-playing writing partners. When the writing progressed into something else, he was there every step of the way. Reading what was written and deciding with me, if I could, would or should continue. When my Nat, wrote and asked about becoming my submissive, T and I took quite some time to review and approve his request.

For more background about Nat and me: http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3419

By the way, the relationship is still going strong. All with my T's approval.

I often feel guilty at having a fantastic marriage. It wasn't always so, but T and I have worked very hard on staying best friends and getting over the nasty bumps that life throws at us.

If someone realizes they are dominant or submissive but their spouse is neither, is it appropriate to start a new relationship with someone that is in the lifestyle?

Whew! That's a big question and I agree with others. It's a personal choice and a choice that can and will affect the marriage. It's a choice that's up to you. We make our choices and then we have to live with them.

My T is very dominant, he's my dom. Yet he decided to let Mistress Ruby come out to play. Lucky me, cause, "I switch, therefore I am."

If T told me, or asked me, not to have Nat as my submissive, we would honor his request. It doesn't mean that Nat and I wouldn't remain friends, yet "that" part of our relationship would be closed.

Would we still write together? Stories like this one:
http://www.bdsmlibrary.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3882

I certainly hope so! T isn't cruel enought to keep me from enjoying my naughty side via my writing.

[caligirl{Rob}]

I can only tell you this. I have known Cali since I joined the Library and I have met MR in person. They are truly in love and I believe that when the time is right they will be together and be very happy. I hope it can be soon. They were blessed to find one another.
I just had an ugly wake up call and may not have all the time in the world to finally be with Dragon, as we had once thought. (We have no other relationships in our way, but we have elderly parents and job responsibilities that keep us apart). And even though he is ill, I still can't leave to be with him, as much as I would like to. Mean old Master insists on being "practical". Pfffft! However, I would strongly encourage anyone that has had a long term, real life relationship with their Dominant or submissive, and are totally confident that this is what they need to be happy, to do whatever they can to make that relationship exclusive.
Just my 2 copper tarns worth..... "peace" ~blizz~

i love you so much blizz!! and you know my thoughts and prayers are with you and Dragon always (darn practical Doms!") HUGS!!

I was going to post in response to several and defend my choice(s). But, have decided against it.

Basically, unless you are me and have lived the EXACT life, with the same people, circumstances, etc. then your words and response to this topic are nothing more then that. Yours. You may have handled the situations differently, but that is something that can never be completely proven... since you are NOT me.

We are all entitled too our opinions, just as I am entitled to make the choices I feel are best for me and mine. We can either agree to disagree on those views and move on or not. But I will no longer defend myself to anyone for being who I am and making the decisions I felt necessary in my situation. No one has to agree with me... but it isn't fair to judge or insult me in the process.

that was beautifully stated annie...no way to improve on perfection! HUGS!

She asked how you can have a D/s relationship outside of a marriage and still have honesty, and she also asked when is it okay to go outside the marriage to start a D/s relationship. Everyone is giving their honest opinion on what is oftentimes a volatile subject. I won't say it's okay if I don't think it is, but it's not my decision to make for anyone but ME. We are all responsible for the decisions we make and must ultimately bear the consequences of those decisions. Sometimes our decisions affect other people directly or indirectly, either positively or negatively. That being said, if you're going to air your dirty laundry on a public forum, don't be surprised if not everyone approves of your skidmarked underwear. Eww...that was kinda gross....*ggls* Anyway, it's like having kinks...what works for some doesn't work for others.

silly me looked at it as honestly answering a serious question with the thoughtful and open view of the reality of my own life, my own experience, and difficult choices made to get through each day...that is obviously something that is not wise to do...i don't apologize nor seek approval, but also don't expect the willingness to share part of my experience as open season to be judged