Humilation Debate

[Psynymph]

ok so this is a subject i'm putting out there for debate....because gawd knows there's gonna be alot of people that don't agree with me.

please though...this is a debate, not an argument. i'm starting it to see what everyone's opinion is.

i've noticed...in looking through the personals here and other various places....that more submissive guys are into the "humilate me on web cam" sorta thing than submissive females. in fact, i can't ever remember running into a sub fem online that wanted to be humilated via webcam.

i would like to discuss the psychological aspects of this.....

i think women are more hesistant to open themselves up for humilation because women are SO much more sensitive about that sort of stuff.

like myself......you can call me a dirty little slut and i'll just get wet. call me ugly and i'll go after you tooth and nail.

and for me, humilation goes into that insult territory.

hmm yes so please....continue.....

maybe someone can expand on the humilation aspect of this as well......

[Timberwolf]

It does seem that this is one of the big differences between male and female subs, in terms of how much this tool gets used. Now, I have to asterisk pretty much everything that follows with the statement that overall, I don't get into many different kinds of humiliation play as a regular thing.

Having said *that*, I am the guy who started a sexual fantasy thread once on women making fun of a man's cock size. So now that I've gone and made the water clear as mud...

For me, the best way to sum up my view on this from either the sub or Dom role is I'm willing to look at it, but I need to rally get inside someon'e head first and know them. I think if one's going to go with this you've got to have a lot of trust there so that it doesn't range from "humiliation play" into genine emotional abuse, which is a gray line granted, but an important line to draw all the same. In my view I'd need a clearly defined set of "okay" topics to delve into for something like this. And I think communication before and after scenes invovling this is definitley very important.

I don't consider myslef a sub male who's really that much into the humilation play, though there are certain areas I'd explore given the right conditions. I stumbled across a FemDom paysite (the link of which I can't provide, though it's preview pages would make for interesting material on the current subject) that deals pretty much exclusivly with this activity. I found it... somewhat interesting, though not something that really turned my personal crank. I think a lot of this depends on what you find humiliating. Some guys seem to want to get "feminized" and put in dresses and makeup (that's one of the sects that's not my thing, though I don't have any problem with it either). Some want to get called names. Some seem to really enjoy the fantasy of being with a woman who makes it clear that one man just isn't enough for her and that she has no intention of sticking with just one male - that also goes off and intermingles with cuckolding. Some guys like to be giggled at in sexual moments. I'm sure there's other stuff too that either slipped my mind or I'm just not aware of.

The common element between these things seems to be a couple themes. One, women who put men, as a whole, down pretty openly. This for me is a big part of why I don't get into it more. I don't need to hear the line "men are pigs" as part of my sex play, thanks very much. I prefer to view FemDom as a tool to elevate women, not lower men. I think for me that's a big difference there. Though clearly there are plenty who get into the idea, and deal with it just fine for themselves. Two, many of these different themes deal with women being more agressive and assertive, and men who like to see that kind of (for women) unorthodox behaviour expressed openly. That part I think I understand better, to a degree. I tend to be drawn to confident women, regardless of D/s role. This kind of play for some can certainly "exagerate" that kind of attitude in a way they find appealing.

It's kind of odd. Women are, as a generalization, better at dealing with feelings. Men are, as a generalization, better at coping with physical pain. Yet you can find as many female subs as you like who are masochists, and plenty of sub men into being humiliated. I'm not sure what the message in that is, I never really thought about it before.

There's a lot going on with this topic. I don't know what else to say on it, yet. Hopefully there will be more input to follow.

[_ID_]

Are you looking for a debate strickly from a submissives point of view? If so, I will just watch the debate, as I find the subject rather interesting.

V/R
ID

[lily27]

"Men are, as a generalization, better at coping with physical pain."

Are you sure about that, Wolfie One??

I don't tend to get off on humiliation at the moment (I have to add the disclaimer because I am still very much exploring). However, when I do get into that type of play, I get more out of the pleasing Him aspect than the actual humiliation.

I do know what you mean about the slut comment, Psynymph. With one qualifier. I am HIS slut.

[Psynymph]

yes Timberwolf....that whole...men are better with pain.....ummm....lol.....

no. i'm a massive pain slut. i've had things done to me that had an entire room flinching. also...women go through childbirth.....men can't really compare to that.

but this isn't battle of the sexes....or at least shouldn'tbe.

and this isn't submissive only debate.......anybody can contribute....like we can keep you big bad Doms out anyway :P

lily....i guess this is where humilation needs to be defined for me. it's not humilating for me to be called His little slut. cuz i am. but i would be deeply insulted if my Trainer insultedmy vainity. but some consider that a good form of humilation. i personally would never stand for it. lol i'm way to vain for that.

[cadence]

I get very aroused and excited when the word humiliation is mentioned.
Since I am new to the whole experience, my interpretation of humiliation is being forced to do things that you would be extremely uncomfortable doing. Something that you do not want to do, but will do to please.
Being called a slut and more does in fact hieghten my state of arousal, and I have never considered it humiliation.
I would never go for being insulted or having derogatory comments about my body thrown at me, as I find it boderlines on emotional abuse.
Humiliation and my interpretation of it is a learning process for me, I do it, I don't like it, and will not want to do it again, but in the end I do get some sort of satisfaction and excitement out of it.
Then again you could also alude to the fact that I am extremely shy and reserved, so my humiliation could be everyone else's average kink.

[fantassy]

You make a great point Aria. What defines humiliation? Whatever the sub feels it is.

When my Dom and I were setting limits. Humiliation was a definite NO for me. However, as we explored specific acts and tasks, my Dom commented that some subs would consider many of the things I was willing to try to be humiliating. In my mindset, they were not. Even though I have somewhat of a semi-public kink, it is not humiliation which drives that kink for me, but rather the "naughtiness" of it.

I discovered that perhaps the most important factor to me was my Dom's attitude. For example, calling a sub "my cum slut" can be used in several different ways. The Dom can convey possession or be emphasizing the sexuality of the sub or can use it to lessen the sub. That last makes me think of the army - how they humiliate the new recruits in order to break them down, so the Army can reform the recruits to be proper soldiers. I don't see D/S as tearing down and rebuilding my "self", I see it as an expansion/exploration of "self" - adding on, not taking away, which is probably why humiliation doesn't work for me.

But really, it's all in the mindset. Stick a buttplug in me with a tail protruding, and I won't it as humiliating. Titillating, submissive, teasing but not humiliating.

fantassy

[_ID_]

Humiliation, as stated is all in the mindset, as stated. That being said. As a Dominant, to find what a submissive feels is humiliating and still a turn on, that is something I would use. To use something that debases them, and serves no other purpose other than to insult them, and get no excitement or benefit from it. That version of humiliation would or could be characterized as abuse.

Since the question/debate was geared towards humiliation rather than pain. I figured I would take a look at different reasons one would find different activities that are humiliating, something that a person would enjoy.

Sexual humiliation is very open ended. Broadly it can be divided into verbal, and physical aspects. Verbal aspects might include:

* Verbal belittlement, such as "slave", "boy", "girl", "missy", "pet".
* Insults and verbal abuse, such as "fat", "ugly", "stupid", "worthless".
* Degrading references such as "slut", "tart", "bitch", "faggot" and "whore".
* Slighting of body parts or behaviors, such as disparaging or cruel references to breasts, facial appearance, genitalia or genital size, bottom, and slighting of mannerisms such as walking, responsiveness, standard of self-care.
* Having to ask permission for everyday activities such as toilet, or eating or spending money.
* Small penis humiliation, where scorn is addressed towards the supposed inadequacy of the male's genitals or his inability to please a woman (and by implication his essential worthlessness as a man and his penis becomes an object of play for the woman).
* Forced repetition, such as being obliged to repeat back commands to confirm them.
* Mockery and ridicule.

Physical and tangible aspects might include:

* Ejaculating or urinating on the bottom's body or, especially, the face.
* Performance of menial tasks.
* Detailed accountability and control (micro-management) as to time spent or activities done, including list of jobs to do, precise directions as to how the housework is to be performed, exactly how to act and behave, and so on.
* Specific rituals and affectations to be adopted. This includes displays of subservience, such as lighting cigarettes, walking a pace behind the dominant, only speaking when spoken to, kneeling or eating after others, low status place to sleep, etc.
* Roleplaying "lower status" beings such as animals or babies (see human animal roleplay and adult baby play).
* Spanking, restraint or other BDSM activities.
* Prohibitions or restrictions on clothing, or (for men) feminizing, cross dressing and/or sissification.
* Use of chastity belts or other means of erotic sexual denial.
* Wearing of external signs of "ownership" such as a collar.
* Having friends, family or strangers aware of or witnessing one's treatment (i.e.: public humiliation).
* Erotic objectification, where the bottom is cast in the role of an object.
* Embarrassment.

Some sexual humiliation involves inflicting pain but much of it is far more concerned with ridicule, mocking, degradation and embarrassment.

I highlighted those items that I felt were in the abuse category. Even though I felt that way. There are others who find that activity to be a huge turn on.

So why would anyone enjoy being humiliated by being urinated/ejaculated on? Some people find that activity to fall into an objectification area. What about having your small penis or tits made fun of? That would go towards your need to please your Dominant, for them to find pleasure in your appearance. Or what about some activities that fall into the ritualistic category? Things such as not being able to sleep in your Dominants bed with them, or eating from a dog dish? These activities are demeaning and debasing, yet some people find them to be a rather large turn on. I think the reason for that is that when they are allowed to do sleep in bed with their Dom/me or eat at the table. It means they have been good, and have pleased their Dom/me.

So why the difference in preference between men and women (in general terms)? Perhaps it is because women tend to be more concerned about their own self image more than men do. For example, the loaded question a woman will give her significant other "do these pants make my butt look fat?". Guys don't ask those kinds of questions. Guys don't wear make up (normally). Guys (normally) don't have 30 pairs of shoes to match every shirt he owns.

Perhaps it's due to the idea that a good portion of male submissives see a female dominant in a maternal role. The need to be pleasing for mommy, and yet being degraded and humiliated even still.

Since I am not submissive, I can't really give a good submissive perspective.

V/R
ID

[SheepishJaina]

Humiliation is a great thing. Provided, that any humiliation does not do permanent psychological damage. What would cause damage in one person, is not the same as another.

Private humiliation is wonderful. Knowing that one person is the only other who will know about it, is a turn on for me. The fear that the general masses will find out is diminished, because the odds of it happening are very low. Public humiliation however is still a turn on for me, but it causes a lot of mental grief after the fact. I avoid that at all costs. There's different types of public humiliation. Wearing a plug in public, or going out in underwear or no underwear, is still private. Even though its out in public, no one else knows. Being made to walk out in public in shackles, is another story.

With name calling, call me a slut, a dirty cunt, while playing and i'm fine. Call me those any other times and you'll have to find your balls. Good girl works all the time. But with me, call me just "girl" and i can't stand it. "girl" is too demeaning.

It all just boils down to us individually really. I think the men are just more vocal publically about wanting it, but I do know that many women enjoy, and want some humiliation.

[Dragon's muse]

With name calling, call me a slut, a dirty cunt, while playing and i'm fine. Call me those any other times and you'll have to find your balls. Good girl works all the time. But with me, call me just "girl" and i can't stand it. "girl" is too demeaning.

Different people have different triggers. Dragon often addresses me as "girl" and it doesn't bother me (if someone else tried it, i am not sure who would bail on them first). He can rag on anything physical that he likes; yes my tits are small, i have no ass to speak of, even call me ugly. (again this only goes for Dragon!) BUT, even with Dragon, if you call me dumb, or stupid or anything else that degrades my intelligence, . . . . things get ugly, quickly.

[~hellish one~]

Different people have different triggers. Dragon often addresses me as "girl" and it doesn't bother me (if someone else tried it, i am not sure who would bail on them first). He can rag on anything physical that he likes; yes my tits are small, i have no ass to speak of, even call me ugly. (again this only goes for Dragon!) BUT, even with Dragon, if you call me dumb, or stupid or anything else that degrades my intelligence, . . . . things get ugly, quickly.

i agree! "girl" doesn't bother me one bit. it actually makes me smile when he calls me that. but, that's just me. like you and sheepish said, what works for one, doesn't always work for another...what humiliates or embarasses me, won't necessarily cause the next person to even blink twice. humiliation is something i have explored very little of. i like to think i am open enough to explore it more, though. i can take being called all kinds of names, but the whole dumb and stupid thing just wouldn't work for me either!! not to say that verbal humiliation is the only type of humiliation out there! ~wink~

[annie]

After reading the definition i find it interesting that over 1/2 the items on the list i have experienced and enjoyed but would NEVER have thought of them as humiliating. To me it was always just a part of this lifestyle that i have chosen to participate in.

i also agree that it is "humiliation" not only based on my impression of it but also on the way in the item is being presented.

My husband and i have an on going issue about my spending habits. My attitude on it is... "I am a grown woman, i have managed budgets for years, get a grip (insert your favorite cuss word here)!" But, my attitude about having to report my diet, daily to my previous Master, and to ask His permission to cum, use the restroom, etc. never gave me a second thought. That is how the relationship was. Basically from my husband i get the underlying sense of he is assuming i am stupid when it comes to finances (no he has never said that but that is my impression of it) where as the sense from Master was one of concern and care.

Also my Master could call me "slut, whore, etc." until His voice gave out and only made me more excited because of the feelings He evoked in me. Whereas i was talking to someone on MSN the other night and they kept calling me "pet" which greatly annoyed me because i didn't know them and i viewed it as being degrading.

So, it is as much in the delivery and the attitude of the person(s) involved as it is based on my attitude about the topic.

Of course, public and private humiliation will have to be a different post when time allows... lol.

[Echoes]

for I was told as a part of meditation during training that to speak out against any Dominant is extremely wrong - period. To accept everything, for it is his joy and his peace that is paramount and understanding does not come into this but understanding comes from experience...as you experience and learn to accept any part of his joy, pain ect...that this completes him and that was our goal...there were to be no limits...and yes I know this is not the proper way to begin...now.
Where is the limit when it comes to talking? Speaking of experiences and what you see and disagree with, what you think is abuse?
Or perhaps it should not be said here?

*added in edit*

I wont erase what I said but summarize how I feel.
...looking at IDCrewDawg's post is so very accurate. It is based on reactions, feelings and sense of being and self esteem, how it interacts between the person humiliating and the person being humiliated and varying extremes. Anything that is belittling your worth through verbal abuse and ridicule should really be addressed.

[master 327-834-200]

This is a fascinating thread and as I read each new post I am left thinking that what is really at the heart of this discussion is limits. There is a great list of things that could come under the heading of humiliation but what is being expressed by almost everyone is that for them some things are accepted as part of their play and others are not, those that are not accepted are confused with being humiliation. Just because something is accepted, enjoyed or even sexually exciting doesn't stop it from being an act of humiliation. Simply wearing a collar is a form of humiliation but I have read on many an occasion tender and loving words written by subs who have chosen to wear their Masters collar and the profound effect this has on them. This, I feel, is becuse deep down they know it to be a humiliating act but because of how (and with who) it takes place the humiliation is converted into pleasure.

Hope I expressed myself clearly there as I am a Master and do not wish to talk to subs about things in which they have far more experience than me.

[moptop]

Humiliation is a great thing. Provided, that any humiliation does not do permanent psychological damage. What would cause damage in one person, is not the same as another.

I'm having a related conversation with a friend at the moment, and totally agree with this. Safe and consensual is at least as important for the psychological and emotional aspects as it is for the physical. Quite possibly more so.

Private humiliation is wonderful. Knowing that one person is the only other who will know about it, is a turn on for me. (...)Wearing a plug in public, or going out in underwear or no underwear, is still private. Even though its out in public, no one else knows.

I have similar lines/limits: what is between me and him, is fine, is a BIG turn on, but I don't want to share it. I must admit, I'd never actually thought of wearing no underwear/plug/remote vibrator/whatever in public as being humiliating - it just hadn't occured to me that it was! - I just think of it as continuing the fun... other people knowing? ah, well, I'm very uncomfortable with that. My tingle comes from the risk of being 'found out' - and just pushing it that little bit further. Sitting in a low sofa in a pub with his finger up my pussy. Several fingers actually. Whilst wearing a short skirt and no underwear. Now that was a challenge. God I was dripping. (Am I over sharing here?!)

Don't call me 'dear'. Don't ever, ever call me 'dear'. Unless I'm trussed up and need some teasing to get me fighting back.

[Echoes]

on the upside, to be considered and called by someone their slut, to wear anything under clothes in public ie buttpllug, bondage, *gasp* vibrator... does sound delicious. Hmmm what would be most humiliating to me right now that I can think of would be to be made to say what I want and ask for this...is this a form of humiliation? Being made to talk dirty and such?

[Jadetiger]

Echos,
I am having a little problem with what you where told. Never and I mean never set yourself up to be a door mat for any dominant. Polite and gracious yes but never a foot stool for any dominant that wishes to step on you. Submission is a gift to be given only to those worthy of it and a title does not qualify anyone as being worthy. The gift of submission must be earned with trust and respect. I will assume your dominant is extremely protective and keeps people from taking advantage of you while you are in training so to don't have to do it yourself.

Truthfully I have a big problem understanding humiliation because like many others I see; if someone likes something or I like it as well I don't see it as humiliating. While there are many things that turn others on that would get the Dom a set of racked nuts if they tried it on me. I do understand it is a big turn on for others and I accept it willingly.

I did spent 4 days with a dominant male as the submissive and many of the items mentioned in IDCrewDawg’s post where experienced. I found none of them arousing in anyway. I guess it was a true submissive gift since he was the only one enjoying the experience. What I leaned was that when it comes to humiliation you really have to care for the person for it to work. For me that takes a very long time and a lot of one on one time before I can trust a person enough to let myself go and enjoy exploring new things.

I have explored humiliation on a smaller scale when I let my sub/switches top me. I find that very arousing at times as they find it when they are on the receiving end. I think it all boils down to the chemistry of the relationship and the individuals involved. Since neither of my subs are into humiliation we don’t really explore it. I do have to make a disclaimer here. There are several items in IDCrewDawg’s list that we would not consider humiliation but we are perverts.

Psynymph,
You do have a very good point. I am a Dom/switch and I get many requests to dominate and humiliate gentlemen via cam and very few requests from women. I am not sure if it has to do more with supply and demand or if men are generally more aggressive in seeking out play partners than women are to satisfy their needs. I think it is probably a combination of both.

The psychological aspects of humiliation I think will vary for each individual, the relationship between the individuals and the experiences they have had explored together. All I can say is I would have to really care for a person and know that it triggered extreme arousal to be able to humiliate them.

Timberwolf,
I have to agree with the lady’s have a baby then generalize. ~chuckles~ kiss

[Echoes]

Echos,
I am having a little problem with what you where told. Never and I mean never set yourself up to be a door mat for any dominant. Polite and gracious yes but never a foot stool for any dominant that wishes to step on you. Submission is a gift to be given only to those worthy of it and a title does not qualify anyone as being worthy. The gift of submission must be earned with trust and respect. I will assume your dominant is extremely protective and keeps people from taking advantage of you while you are in training so to don't have to do it yourself.

Jadetiger, not to worry, I am not in this relationship anymore, it was wonderful and new in the very beginning but the more it progressed the more it became damaging. I have not entered into a relationship again since...prefering to find my way back here after a couple years of licking wounds, sorting myself out, seeking friends, looking to learn and deciding if this is the direction I wish to continue in a much healthier atmosphere.

Truthfully I have a big problem understanding humiliation because like many others I see; if someone likes something or I like it as well I don't see it as humiliating.

This was one question I remember asking with no response...how can it be humiliating if it is enjoyable?

[Echoes]

and thank you Jadetiger, I had to leave forums so I would not erase that previous paragraph. I do appreciate any guidance and help in the right direction.

[Timberwolf]

You know ladies, there were *other* things in my post.

[Jadetiger]

and thank you Jadetiger, I had to leave forums so I would not erase that previous paragraph. I do appreciate any guidance and help in the right direction.

Your welcome Echoes and I am sorry if I was baring my claws a little. I have a very strong instinct to protect someone when I think they are in danger, even if it is just my perception. I hope I didn't come across as being to over bearing. In a relationship like you described it takes a very special dominant to take on the responsibility of protecting someone when they have made them so vulnerable to others like that. And I have met very few that do the job right.

I am sorry for the pain you have experienced as well as the emotional hurt you still have to carry. You are doing exactly what you need to be doing. Moving on and moving forward in your journey as you learn more about what your needs are.

Jade

Timberwolf,
ROFL
Runs back to see if there was something else in his post. Ops didn’t see all that. ~grins

Okay I will stop teasing. I did read the whole post and happen to agree with your point of view on most things. Even being a dominant female I find most fem/dom sites not to my taste and mostly because of the verbal humiliation aspect regarding all men as pigs. Luckily I ignore most of those items and head to the fem/dom strap on section

Hugs,
Jade

[annie]

It's kind of odd. Women are, as a generalization, better at dealing with feelings. Men are, as a generalization, better at coping with physical pain. Yet you can find as many female subs as you like who are masochists, and plenty of sub men into being humiliated. I'm not sure what the message in that is, I never really thought about it before.

*Looking REALLY hard to find something else in Tw's post....

Actually, after rereading the entire thing, the above paragraph stuck out still. But, this time not so much for the men/pain reference *snickers.*

The part that stuck this time was the "Yet you can find as many female subs as you like who are masochists, and plenty of sub men into being humiliated."

Perhaps that entire sentence is the key (or at least a portion of it.) Women are more emotional... therefore what a female sub may experience that is "defined" as humiliation is processed mentally to help them overcome/deal with the feeling of humiliation, at times being processed into the emotion of love, devotion, pleasure, anger, etc. That way women are better able to protect their mental states without letting the emotion of "humiliation" take over. But, i do think, on some levels it is an automatic response and is just how women are programmed.

In the same process women who are masochists *raises my hand* perhaps enjoy that aspect of it due to the fact that it is a straight forward, somewhat simple emotion to deal with (for the most part) and doesn't confuse/muddle up things when they finally slip to that edge. But... this thread is not about pain... so moving on!

Men on the other hand tend to shy away from emotions. So when some men ask (beg) for humiliation are they really searching for the true emotion or for the physical reaction that is evoked of a stronger/Dominate female figure? Is their desire for humiliation accurate or is it viewed by them as part of the foreplay.

There is a thread on here from Silke about a humiliation task she had done in the Academy (which i can't find at the moment...grrrrr) and the affects after it until she was able to speak to her Master and the TM that assigned it. That is just one example of how the emotions, etc. continued to play out in the sub after the task. What i now wonder though is, had it been a male sub (which the task is not designed for), what would the after emotions have been? Would they have had the need for reassurance or assuming the top analogy is somewhat accurate, would the after effects of the assignment been more sexually/arousal based?

*Disclaimer ~ i am not trying to generalize all women and men on the emotional aspects... just wondering out loud!*

[vistana]

Echos,
I am having a little problem with what you where told. Never and I mean never set yourself up to be a door mat for any dominant.

heh, doormat is his current favourite nickname for me, I'm his little doormat whenever he feels like making me squirm. Entirely because he knows it bugs me...
I've been reading this discussion with interest, since humiliation play is something I've only recently been getting into myself. My interest delights the boyfriend, who has lots of fun finding new ways to make me uncomfortable.

It's interesting reading this and other forums and seeing just how variable humiliation is.
for me, I can be called any number of names with varyng degrees of humiliation, but it's always more so when he makes me say them myself. There any number of fun sexualised names with varying degrees of embarassment attached, some slurs are practically terms of affection, while others are incredibly difficult for me say. I find words to be intensely powerful, I'm a total word nerd, and a guy who can talk well is my ultimate turn on. And making me talk, when normally submission makes me clam up completely - it's hard, but hot.
What I'm finding right now to be pretty much skirting my limits is animal play...he's trying to get me to accept being called a dog, and I just end up digging in my heels and it just doesn't go. I don't know if I'll win this one, but for whatever reason I find that sort of thing more humiliating than almost anything else... he's had me kissing his feet, I've been used as a footrest, had to lick my own juices off the floor, but try to get me to act like a dog? nuh uh, can't/won't.
I don't know how long that stance will hold... I have a feeling he's going to be sneakily persistent about this, but it's my current biggest 'eep!'.

I find that in many ways humiliation play is more intense than anything else. He can beat me black and blue, but so far it's the humiliation that will bring tears long before pain does. But man is it hawt!

[Echoes]

Your welcome Echoes and I am sorry if I was baring my claws a little. I have a very strong instinct to protect someone when I think they are in danger, even if it is just my perception. I hope I didn't come across as being to over bearing. In a relationship like you described it takes a very special dominant to take on the responsibility of protecting someone when they have made them so vulnerable to others like that. And I have met very few that do the job right.

I am sorry for the pain you have experienced as well as the emotional hurt you still have to carry. You are doing exactly what you need to be doing. Moving on and moving forward in your journey as you learn more about what your needs are.

Please don't apologize at all Jadetiger and to be very honest, it is nice to feel bared claws...I am not really sure if this is a double-entendre or not but it sounds wickedly delicious.

[gloombunny]

This was one question I remember asking with no response...how can it be humiliating if it is enjoyable?

Whereas I would ask "how can it be enjoyable if it's not humiliating?"

Seriously, your question can't really be answered. For me, at least, some kinds of humiliation are enjoyable, and that's about all I can really say about it. I can't explain why humiliation is sexy any more than I can explain, say, why a woman's breasts are sexy. They just are.

[gloombunny]

Simply wearing a collar is a form of humiliation but I have read on many an occasion tender and loving words written by subs who have chosen to wear their Masters collar and the profound effect this has on them. This, I feel, is becuse deep down they know it to be a humiliating act but because of how (and with who) it takes place the humiliation is converted into pleasure.

How is wearing a collar a form of humiliation? I can imagine that wearing a collar I didn't want, from someone I don't respect, would be humiliating, but I don't think that's what you were talking about.

If I accept someone as my mistress/master and wear their collar willingly, that's not humiliating in the least. It's a physical proof that I'm accepted and valued by someone who I deeply cherish. That's like the opposite of humiliation. I would be proud to wear a collar like that.

[Echoes]

Whereas I would ask "how can it be enjoyable if it's not humiliating?"

Seriously, your question can't really be answered. For me, at least, some kinds of humiliation are enjoyable, and that's about all I can really say about it. I can't explain why humiliation is sexy any more than I can explain, say, why a woman's breasts are sexy. They just are.

I love how you think !

...and thank you

[fantassy]

Simply wearing a collar is a form of humiliation but I have read on many an occasion tender and loving words written by subs who have chosen to wear their Masters collar and the profound effect this has on them. This, I feel, is becuse deep down they know it to be a humiliating act but because of how (and with who) it takes place the humiliation is converted into pleasure.

M 327-834-200, if I am interpreting your words correctly, you and I have polar opposite views on this topic. Do you see every act of submission a sub performs for her Dom to be a humiliating act? If so, why? If not, where do you draw the line? If wearing a collar is humiliating, is wearing a wedding ring? How are you defining what is a humiliating act? I'd really love hear more of your thoughts on this.

fantassy

[Timberwolf]

Count me in on the viewpoint of seeing nothing humiliating about wearing a collar, personally. For me it's an act of serious pride.

[master 327-834-200]

M 327-834-200, if I am interpreting your words correctly, you and I have polar opposite views on this topic. Do you see every act of submission a sub performs for her Dom to be a humiliating act? If so, why? If not, where do you draw the line? If wearing a collar is humiliating, is wearing a wedding ring? How are you defining what is a humiliating act? I'd really love hear more of your thoughts on this.

fantassy

Count me in on the viewpoint of seeing nothing humiliating about wearing a collar, personally. For me it's an act of serious pride.

Timberwolf

I hope the wording of my post has not confused issues. The wearing of a collar 'could' be seen as humiliation by some, it was not a statement of my view of this wonderful act of commitment. It was merely to illustrate the point that defining anything as humiliating is a conflict between what we find acceptable or pleasureable and what others deem humiliation. It is similar to the debate of what is 'normal'. I have never been an advocate of attaching labels to anyone or anything. (except christmas presents possibly)

This is an interesting thread that psynymph started and I for one thank her for it. I think it would be fruitless for me to define what I find humiliating for the above reasons.

Where it comes truly into play for us as participants is when we explore the edges of our limits. That is where the frisson of excitement occurs. If we push our boundaries that little bit further than last time, getting ever closer to our hard limits there is the tension and excitement that could be defined as humiliation play.

This balance point will be unique and different to everyone and every couple. For me these limits are truly only reachable when with someone I love and care for because the trust has to be total to get to the very edge of our limits.

I hope that clears up my earlier post because I in no way want my slave reading this and thinking that I see her wearing her collar as an act of humiliation. (I know what it means to both of us my darling)

Thank you